Natal Chart and Mental Illness - Discussions, questions

Astro-Seek.com System message: Post has been written by user Moon_Queen, who already deleted profile on this website:
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As I understood so far, when "astral body" hits physical body there comes some sort of demand to make those two work as one. This is not happening at once, that is a process of Self adjusting.

If someone has a strong air in chart but not so develope genes (physical brain, nervus system) to support that air, it is very likley that one will develope some sort of authism.

Besides genetic, environment plays a great role too.

People with strong water and not so emotionaly supportive environment and genes that gave them poorly developed nervus system in spots that control emotional behaviour will develope all kinds of depressions...

JayJayAstrology Hi Brenntus!
It´s a really good question and not too many astrologers truly focus on mental illness - although some do. I have a keen interest, but it´s really something that needs to be developed further by the profession.

The problem with identifying mental illness is that people respond to the same energies differently - so the same chart can be that of someone with a mental illness as someone without. BUT, we can observe some probable causes.

There isn´t one planet, sign or house - or asteroid or mid-point or fixed start that is like the one thing that will point to it.

Mercury in 12th house or Pisces or conjunct Neptune is prone to mental illness - but many people have that placement and aren´t mentally ill.

When you put Virgo and Scorpio energy together, you get an obsessive person - OCD even - mixed in with Aquarius or Uranus - ADHD. Can be Virgo Sun in 8th house, Scorpio Moon in 6th house - Mercury in Virgo in the 8th - that kind of thing.

Gemini and Aquarius Moon with other combinations can produce obsessive or OCD qualities as well. These people can have difficulty sleeping well - their minds work very fast.

But these are generalities and most people have varied combinations of planetary qualities that can produce the same effect. I´m just mentioning just a few in isolation. Other planets would contribute to bring out the syndrome - or not.

I had a question about schizophrenia the other day. I have gathered about 80 plus charts of people with schizophrenics. There is no one signature for them. But, they share certain qualities - like a poor self-concept and a sensitivity or vulnerability to helping others and losing their identity in the process. They have thin or poor boundaries. So you can have Taurus, 2nd house issues of poor self-concept or Leo, 5th house issues of poorly developed self-identity and esteem mixed with Virgo Pisces Libra or Cancer sensitivity. It´s really complicated, and usually all the planets in the charts play a role to create the possibility for the illness to occur.

That´s why it´s hard to pin it down to one signature or combination of planetary influences. But it´s fascinating to chart all the different ways an illness can be seen in a chart.

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Astro-Seek.com System message: Post has been written by user Fool, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Hi, tried to get a freebie (book) but no luck; there are lots of opinions on indicators of mental health but only one book I could find: https://www.amazon.com/Signs-Mental…

If you read it come back and share your opinions

Edit: also a PDF on predicting ´mental illness´
https://www.researchgate.net/public…

Brentus » JayJayAstrology Thanks for your very insightful response! I was thinking along the same lines as to what you described and put in words far better than I could articulate. I really like the way you described it, because it shifts the focus from trying to find a “root cause” (which I feel there is no universal due to, as you very well put, how everyone can express the same energy in a different way). It on a very basic level made me think of this – lots of astrology textbooks tend to emphasize a “positive” and a “negative” trait based on placements, aspects, what have you… What is the difference between self-confidence and arrogance? Meticulous and fastidious? They’re opposite in terms of value but they are very much expressions of the same energy, overlayed with other refinements due to other aspects of the chart, and throw in life experiences to boot.
Trying to find a signature or specific combination may not prove very practical on a personal level, but I guess I also wonder if we look at manifestations of energy on a generational level (particularly with the outer planets). Lots of texts will coincide major issues or advancements to placements within signs. The one that comes to mind is Pluto in Scorpio and the AIDS epidemic. I’m just curious and spitballing here – I know this stuff gets complex, but for example, in the US the risk of suicide and mental health issue in the younger generations have grown significantly. There are tons of contributing factors and without a doubt no one root cause. However, considering the slow progression of the outer planets and all, I wonder if maybe they will be able to see some type of “manifestation of energy” that lead to a whole generation being prone to mental health issues – or was it just due to advancements elsewhere (such as with technology and communication skills). I guess looking at the chart for the country would hold some clues. Anyway, I’m getting a bit off track here. Besides, I think it would need a “few cycles” before we could really link in a meaningful way the outer planets and the social events of the time.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful response. I enjoyed reading it!

Brentus » Fool Very interesting! I’ll definitely look into it and let you know what I learn! Thanks for taking the time to dig up some resources! I guess I probably could have done my own research before asking the question. lol

N_thecat » JayJayAstrology >"I had a question about schizophrenia the other day. I have gathered about 80 plus charts of people with schizophrenics. There is no one signature for them. But, they share certain qualities - like a poor self-concept and a sensitivity or vulnerability to helping others and losing their identity in the process. They have thin or poor boundaries. So you can have Taurus, 2nd house issues of poor self-concept or Leo, 5th house issues of poorly developed self-identity and esteem mixed with Virgo Pisces Libra or Cancer sensitivity."

It´s very true...I know one person with schizophrenia and he has really messed-up chart. Sun conjunct Uranus in Leo, Moon in Pisces, Mercury in Virgo...I blamed Neptune for that "mess" (Neptune in Scorpio), because it is in aspects with so many planets there - luminaries, Mercury, Mars, Pluto...
Seeing that chart and that persons´ behaviour I get the feeling that Neptune is really a malefic planet.
But who knows, maybe that Sun conjuct Uranus also cause a damage...

Brentus » Moon_Queen I see, that’s an interesting way to look it. Essentially it’s the idea that where we lack coping skills or ways to express emotion, or communication, or what have you – you’ll find problems. That’s basically the premise of western abnormal psychology. There are both genetic and environmental factors of course that go into it and it is not so simplistic as I just described, but you get the idea. I never thought of it like that. Thanks for your input! Very neat!

JayJayAstrology » Brentus Oh, thank you. I see we think alike! I like how you question things. So many astrologers just say what they learn to say about signs, planets and houses without really questioning and observing or testing out what they learn for themselves. We need to validate everything for ourselves if we are to be good astrologers.

Anyway, I´m not sure that the younger generations are sicker than the older ones. It´s truly difficult to quantify that. What I do think is true is that we have more names and labels for symptoms than we used to have. We are more aware of various syndromes now - so - I do think that this is a factor in feeling like we´re sicker.

When I was a girl, people just said - oh he´s just that way - or she´s just like that - and then don´t think about it much further. We didn´t air dirty laundry, so to speak. We didn´t talk about our feelings. Nowadays, we´re all over the place - freely giving new labels to the old ones and giving names to things we never thought not normal before.

Your example - Pluto in Scorpio = AIDS pandemic. Well, yes, we do see it that way - but how do we look at it? I´m not even sure. Not everyone with AIDS has Pluto in Scorpio or any planet at all in Scorpio. It didn´t effect the Pluto in Scorpio generation only. How do we correlate who got AIDs with their charts? This is all difficult to bring down to earth in some practical, knowledgeable way. Would we have had AIDS if Pluto didn´t go into Scorpio? How do we know? How about all the various new viruses we´ve had over the last 20 years? How is the coronavirus connected to Pluto in Capricorn? How do we verify it? I actually haven´t been researching what prominent astrologers are saying about it. But even THEY can be wrong.

I have a very open mind. I´ve read almost every book I could find on astrological research of this kind - but I have not seen the book Fool mentioned - thank you Fool!

JayJayAstrology » N_thecat We´ve inherited the idea of Malefic planets from Medieval times. I really wish people would stop promoting this idea. This is the 21st century.
We are not doomed by planets. Planets are neither good or bad - only how we respond to them and use them. THEY are not to blame. THEY offer positive and negative potential qualities and we respond. It´s all on us. If we come into life from the past one with negative qualities, then it is up to us to work on that and turn them into positive qualities. Very few people are in a position of utter helplessness. We CAN grow and change - even schizophrenics, if we understand the cause. We simply are such an extroverted world culture that we feel like we´ve got to blame someone or something else for everything - when we really need to look within ourselves for the answer. I hope we become a far more introspective culture.

Brentus » JayJayAstrology That’s a good counter-point, there is a lot of truth in our attitudes and openness and labeling has changed dramatically in terms of mental illness. I’m not so sure I would chalk it all up to that, however. Is it the increase in identification and awareness or the effects of our cultural and social lifestyle? I think, to be frank, it’s a bit of both. If studies have found a correlation between youth and suicide at rates much higher than decades prior – there has to be some reason for that, and I just can’t seem to think awareness is the only factor here. Anyway – I don’t mean to sound argumentative on the topic, just kinda where I see the subject.

As far as the Pluto/Scorpio and AIDS conversations goes – I’m in the exact same boat with you there. I’m asking myself – how is it we are correlating the two? Like I said, I think we’d need a few cycles of the planets to see trends or associations of such magnitude and even then, directly attributing it I think would be a bit presumptuous. As you said – what are our validation methods? To be fair though, I do believe people associate the AIDS pandemic with the Pluto in Scorpio position more based on overtones of the position, rather than AIDS itself. The reason it became such a pandemic But, again, we can go back to our conversation before – Is it really a change in sexual mores or practices we are seeing or just people talking about it? If it is the later – AIDS could have manifested at any time at the proportions, it did. Anyway, I am not a expert in any of these subjects. (I got a degree in language and education , so psychology and astrology while both very interesting, are not exactly my fields of expertise!)

Actually, I wanted to take a moment and actually say thank you for just taking the time to respond to me. I’m new here ( signed up yesterday) and this is the first time I’ve been able to express my interest in the field and talk with others who have experience. I love to learn and I’ve done lots of reading and understand concepts, but the interplay and the art of “interpreting the chart” is something I have 0 experience with, and even to a lesser degree, an ability to really bring together what is there. I’m learning slowly but surely, hopefully. But you give me inspiration to keep looking, keep probing 😉 Thanks!

JayJayAstrology » Brentus You are thinking scientifically, and I love that! I hope you do stick around and investigate astrology and psychology further!

I actually agree with you about the mentally ill. No, I would not just chalk it up to more and better labeling. But, there are so many factors to consider! There are far more people on the planet, for starters. More people, more suicides, even if the rate per thousand or something stays the same. I have no idea how the numbers compare in terms of population increase.

Also, generations now have less to look forward to given our economic decline. We have just come out of the 20th century where we have deconstructed everything that we valued before. Look at art and music. Now a yellow dot on a red background sells for thousands and the 12-tone row replaced the diatonic scale in modern music - which isn´t exactly resonant with the heart. Ragtime has evolved to chaotic jazz in which all players play in a different scale.

Anyway, it isn´t about harmony and beauty any more. It´s about doing it different - not playing by any rules any more - making up new rules as we go along. We´ve lost any feeling of stability in values. And middle class hard-working people can´t afford to pay rent or the school loans. It´s a dim vision.

We don´t have many voices saying we can and will create a better future. Many people are lost and feel life is meaningless. We can say that the Age of Aquarius is about to come upon us - because we need a new structure - and young people need to know and hear of a new vision so they feel life might be meaningful.

I think a new vision is coming. There are underpinnings in the culture . . . but before the new arrives, the old must fall away, and this is what we´re seeing now. So, I do see this in astrology - with the last Pluto-Saturn conjunction in Capricorn. Saturn is now in Aquarius and Pluto will follow in a few years. I feel hope through astrology - in this case - it totally makes sense to me.

Astro-Seek.com » N_thecat System message: Post has been written by user Fool, who already deleted profile on this website:
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"I get the feeling that Neptune is really a malefic planet."

Yes, as a native of in 1st (Scorpio rising) I have often thought so; yet without in there (to soften my projection of ´self´ - being the dissonance of opposing lights channeled through the squares to the Asc)I´m not sure I´d like the end result. You can hide in Neptune for years and still not know it.

Even the dissonance generated by squares between the lights could signal, in social situations, behavioural issues until the native gets the hang of it and then suddenly finds they are charismatic.

Malefic or beneficial is all relative to our condition but I certainly don´t ´like´ ´s vibe at all (always cloudy thinking ), today - if I think of anything I like about it I´ll come back

Brentus » JayJayAstrology Very true! You summed it up well -- there are so many factors to consider! I often forget to bear in mind the increase in population in general, and as an extension of that, longevity of life. Both of which will skew things a bit, and also bring about new issues. Living longer and quality of life, they have waxed and waned over the centuries (especially quality) and I wonder if there is some pattern to that madness? Harmonization sure does good right about now, given the state of affairs.

I hope you´re right about a new vision. You can look in my chart and see if my innate disillusionment with the world and the way it works is prevalent or not, but boy it´s easy to become a hermit and live through the lens of yourself so you don´t have to watch the social and humanitarian crises day to day. I mean despite my over-sensitivity to the issue, it´s worth taking a look at.

Let me try to refocus here (because I´m pretty bad about spiraling into another topic. Aside: You should see me use Wikipedia. I´ll start reading about something, and end up somewhere totally irrelevant by the end of it by interests in aspects I read in the article and clicked the link. I´ve literally went from cheese making and cryogenics. lol). In your experience, could you recommend a textbook or blog, website, anything that you’ve found particularly useful in your learning and development of astrology? Feel free to PM me if you wish. Also, what are your thoughts on “Psychological astrology”?

fishscales I´ve always been of the belief that a mentally healthy and mentally ill person can share many of the same astrological aspects...maybe I´m not well versed enough, but I´ve always thought a birth chart to be a poor indicator of mental health.

At the same time, some aspects are definitely harder to deal with than others.

I actually might look at strong and positive Leo and Taurus influences to possibly insulate someone against mental illness, even if the rest of the chart was "mentally difficult"...

Leo channels things through the heart, taking stress off of the mind, and Taurus is very grounded.

nikkia What a great topic ! I gathered some ´research´ about this subject - when/if I can locate it, this thread is the best place to post it.

I think there are several sources of mental illness and each might have a different astrological signature. (physical, psychological, spiritual)

Garden variety ´mental illness´ seems to be a bit tricky. Especially looking at the natal as a stand alone source of information. Maybe this will change as astrology and science evolves?

Many times, it seems, that transits serve as a ´trigger in a loaded gun´ of expression. In the more profound expressions (those that cross into criminality, then cross into the legal and the ´medical´ aspects of what mental illness actually is) seem easier to track via astrology. The natal is better indicator of mental illness as it unfolds over time - and by looking backwards in time. Too little too late?


Personally, I find it hard to accept that extensive astrological research hasn´t been done on this topic already.
I´ve yet to find a reliable study with concrete results.
Which begs the question, why?

Brentus » fishscales That’s an interesting take as well. Just to expand on what you said, I would assume Leo’s natural house being entertainment and creativity would give a place for thoughts, emotions, and ideas to be expressed. Things can get negative when things get pent up.

You mention the birth chart being a poor indicator of mental health. I see that kind of reflected in psychology. You may be predispositioned towards more negative aspects and therefore more prone to mental illness, but it’s not a guarantee and not the only way. Many people come from great homes, strong constitutions and wills, and fall into mental health issues.

Especially when we get into behavioral/mood disorders – there are people who have a single bout of depression in their life, and live happily after. Other who have recurrent ups and downs and those who never seem to get over the hump. Life circumstances, traumas etc all play a role in that, but you really can’t assume mental illness is not going to be a major factor in someone’s life simply because the setup looks generally good. I guess the same would be for a natal chart.

Schizophrenia, OCD, Autism – things that are more apparent from early childhood and birth that have less environmental factors involved in its manifestation are interesting to look at. It all goes a little bit beyond my comfort zone, because I am not an expert in any of this, but I definitely raise many questions along the way. Thanks for your input!

Brentus » nikkia I agree! You would think in today’s age there would be a lot more interest and research into the topic. I’m excited to see anything you can share with us! It’s interesting to see what combinations people attribute towards the topic. I guess there’s also a rather philosophical and spiritual air to the question, in how we frame and define mental illness, how or why it affects people, and its cause. I mean just like therapy there are different ways to interpret cause and remedy. I’m curious to see through what lens people come to their conclusions in astrology in terms of identifying potential mental illness. There’s a lot to explore there!

Astro-Seek.com » Brentus System message: Post has been written by user Fool, who already deleted profile on this website:
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" could you recommend a textbook or blog, website, anything that you’ve found particularly useful in your learning and development of astrology? Feel free to PM me if you wish. Also, what are your thoughts on “Psychological astrology”? "

You are in luck our own Seeker Dani Mae1 is just launching her new service which combines Astrology and Psychology. Seek her, Seeker

Also this site might give you some ideas about what books to study https://b-ok.cc/book/942709/9250b0

Brentus » Fool Thanks so much, Fool! I´ll look into both Dani Mae1 and those books. It´s inspiring to have people encourage the art!

nikkia » Brentus Until AI starts to sort out astrology, personal ´bias´ guide the eye.
Mine included.

I agree with idea that there are higher and lower expressions of energy and it´s the individual´s ´choice´ how energy is expressed that makes all the difference in the world. Literally.

Barring the rare instances without ´choice´ - we each choose in every moment of everyday, how we express the energies within us, along with energies applying on us, into the external world. The world we each share.

As an Act of Creation, in turn, this third energy ripples, impacting others and is amplified into the world with varying degrees vibrational expression. It has a cumulative effect.

I think there are many people who ´know better´ and just don´t care. It´s ´impossible´ to see this in a chart. Only by action we can know it.

The lack of concern for other and to the whole, is a mental construct that brings such suffering and misery to humankind. Is this not a mental illness?

Sadly, it´s an illness too many share and pass on like a contagion. This is my personal view and through the lens of ´bias´ in which I see.

So, with that said, when time allows, I´ll try to dig up some astro charts with notes about mental illness ´markers´ in the more extreme cases. I am by no means an astrologer. I seek and search for proof. That´s all.

fishscales » Brentus "but you really can’t assume mental illness is not going to be a major factor in someone’s life simply because the setup looks generally good. I guess the same would be for a natal chart."

Astrologically, that is exactly my point.

Otherwise, I agree as well.

dani_mae1 “ Just out of curiosity, has anyone had any experience or read anything about identifying potential mental illness in a natal chart?”

Yes! It started out unintentionally during my 1st Jupiter return. I discovered astrology and then psychology pretty much at the same time. I remember when charts weren’t available online and using these ridiculous tables from books to cast charts. But the psychology aspect appealed to me right away and I dove in researching I guess you could say. I have noticed certain things that can manifest in a natal chart in regards to mental illness. And I will say the Placidus system is my favorite for a psychoanalysis and the things people hate the most about that system I actually utilize.

It really just should eventually be included with medical astrology but until stigmas are broke that won’t happen.

But, I think you have to be truly committed to your mental health as astrologer in conjunction with being ethical (I actually took a couple classes on this specific to astrology psychology and ethics in my formal schooling)and knowledgeable and knowing one’s limitations and when people need to go seek medical help you can’t offer over the internet. After all, you get the reading then what? It’s difficult because not only do you need to make sure they are safe, but you have to make all the information digestible and palatable and choose to stay with that person for as much time as it takes (within reason) because it is such a delicate topic. I don’t think it’s a sect of astrology that’s really taken off because of the type of commitment it is and it’s still VERY taboo.