Pluto´s disregard for structure - Discussions, questions

ZynCitrus yes...i´ve been telling that for a long time ... saturn builds, pluto destroys ... but that is nature of that planet...you can´t revive yourself without beeing dead first... you can´t rebuild without destruction... so yeah... with pluto in first you attract experiences that will destroy you so you can rebuild yourself in a new personality... I´ve learned this with my conjunction, doing, making something good and with one move I destroy it to the ground and have to start from beginning... if you look at the countries that become "free" 1982 and 1983 under sa0pl.... you will see that thay NEVER found a way to be free, those countries are still trying to build a society even 40 years later... :D

ram_goat Taurus builds up, pluto tears down..

It´s disregard in a broad sense.

Or like maggots in a wound, they only eat the dead flesh,
but they leave the living tissue unharmed. That is pluto.
If the decay is chaotic then pluto conforms to it. His real
business is death followed by renewal & rebirth.

Astro-Seek.com System message: Post has been written by user Moon_Queen, who already deleted profile on this website:
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I have to testify in Pluto defence

According to my experience, Pluto seeks for perfection and ultimate sincerity and it will destroy only those systems builed on lies and deceptions. Because of this, it is also considered as point of evolition where only true can survive its callenges. For example if you deceive yourself that you´re OK when you´re not, that is leading you to path of destruction caused by that problem you are denying and therefor will eliminate you from evolution game.

Pluto does not seek any transformation. Not any transformation can satisfy Pluto demands, but only transformation that will lead one to its true Self as a base for futher personal and general evolution.

rohini moon » Moon_Queen ^^^^

That´s exactly how I view it too. You put my thoughts into words with that. all hail the Moon Queen!!

ZynCitrus » Moon_Queen "Pluto does not seek any transformation."
how do you mean this??
Code name for Pluto is to dig deep - why? It´s ruler of the 8th house- why?
" Because of this, it is also considered as point of evolition where only true can survive its callenges."
Pluto rules manipulation, underground - what do you mean true?? Noone is "true" you change in order to be stronger to survive to regenerate

rohini moon » ZynCitrus She means that he´s attempting to transform for the better, it doesn´t always have to mean a destruction of something to the depths of the abyss, although yes of course it can. I tend to look at it as tearing it down to get to something better. A bit like looking at Saturn in the same light. Saturn is a cold, harsh planet. We all know he is capable of showing you hell, as well as heaven. Same concept with Pluto, atleast in my view, the transformation can take on a positive outcome. Uprooting, getting rid of what doesn´t work, for something better is not out of the realms of Pluto´s possibility. And when you don´t ´suit up and show up" to whatever Pluto may demand, then the problem arises. Same as Saturn. I really don´t think they are that dissimilar in certain ways.


I totally get what she was saying.

ZynCitrus » rohini moon it doesn´mean for the better (or worse), because pluto rules mafia too... it´s just power, inner and outer power... but it has to go from the bottom ... tear it down to the ground and build it up again.... transform it... to serve you better, maybe in positive way maybe in negative way but to serve YOU better... has nothing to do with others unless it´s making them your minions that´s why manipulation (in positive, you manipulate/pursue yourself, in negative you manipulate others to serve you.... main goal is to, make unconscious out... and that was there from the purpose that you even wanted to hide it from yourself... again...to dig deep... (dig where? ask yourself again, and why would you need to dig)

AlsaceTX A graphic but pretty accurate depiction of Pluto, the Sultan of Subtlety
(No actual animals, coffee makers, vintage LPs or testicles were harmed in the making of this production)

[Scene: My little quiet life on a random day, sitting in the living room.]
[door knocks]

Me: Who is it?
PLUTO: It´s PLUTO, remember me?
Me: Oh, gee, yeah, Pluto...look I´m in the middle of something and it´s not really a good time for. Come back later? Thanks.

[door busts open, enter PLUTO with a .44 magnum in his right hand and baseball bat in his left. Pluto points the gun at me, draws back hammer]

PLUTO: Evolve or die.
Me: Pluto, look, I remember last time but this is different. Things are fine, everything feels fine. Will you just please go away?
PLUTO: No

[Pluto takes baseball bat, smashes coffee table, TV and a the new coffee pot. Trains gun back on me]

PLUTO: I´ll repeat myself. Evolve or die.
Me: Whoah! Dude! Stop, just Stop! I´ll make changes. I swear!
PLUTO: BWAHAHAHAH!!! You think I´m falling for that? Evolve or DIE.

[Pluto takes baseball back and smashes my right leg.]

PLUTO: *sigh* they never learn, Evolve or DIE.
Me: Okay! Okay! I´ll make drastic changes. I´ll even make them in that natal house you drove up in. Just don´t make me burn everything down and rebuild from the ashes like last time! Come´on!!

[Pluto proceeds to break my other leg, smash my vintage collection of LPs, drink all my wine, stop up the toilet, shoot my dog and shove the still smoking gun directly on my balls]

EVOLVE OR DIE!!!!!

I evolved.

He´s really a great guy when you get to know him. Can´t wait till he comes round again.

Just, don´t resist.

ZynCitrus » AlsaceTX yep...something like this...my point exactly... see you have sa90pl... new "evolve or die" lesson every 7 years :D

AlsaceTX Someone asked me if Pluto wants you to evolve, why does he destroy? I thought I would post my answer to the thread:

Read and understand the mythology behind Hades (Pluto) and Persephone.

Think of Pluto as the higher octave vibration of Mars. However, Mars just wants to achieve his goals. Mars is self, Mars is...a dude. Mars is impulsive and Mars doesn´t really care about anything else.

Pluto is calculating, patient and relentless. He is not after a goal. He wants your surrender. He forces you to go down to the depths of Hades with him and he will keep you there until you face what is holding you back. Structures, habits, people, relationships nothing is off the table.

We are so good at self-deceit, but you cannot hide from Pluto. He peers straight through all walls, whether you are aware of them or not.

Destruction comes almost always. The reason is that the things he wants us to shed are almost invariably things we either don´t realize are holding us back or we consider them too difficult and painful to change. They are our comfort zones, our crutches. They are our excuses.

Pluto aspects and transits are difficult because the raw power involved can affect you and others quite dramatically. However, ultimately he is about helping you to shed what is holding you back so you can rise like the Phoenix and reach heights you could not before.

Pluto often involves power struggles, within yourself or with others. The pull is often to try to dominate others. However, the struggles are within you. Resist the urge to obtain power over others, ESPECIALLY using lies and deceit. For it will almost assuredly rebound on you dramatically.

Look within, embrace the changes. The more you accept them and act proactively the easier (not easy, but easier) they will be. Resistance just makes it worse. Sometimes Pluto transits can aspect five times over two years. For you WILL evolve.

So when dealing with these, head on down your dark cellar. Down in your basement where you do not like to go. He is waiting patiently.

P.S. When I look synastry charts. The first thing I look at are the moons. The very next thing is whether there are Pluto aspects. Picture all that above, played out through another.

IIyyaarr13 is exalted in & , which suggests the most evolved and the least evolved; Pluto is the most important Neptune-crosser and so the most is revealed when Pluto & Neptune share a longitude, a declination or a latitude.
describes my past-life better than the officially recognised rising, that´s why I don´t whine about Astro-Seek being short on text!

Sunnyshadow » AlsaceTX Lol, I like your description. I think it sums it up rather nicely. And since we are all on an evolutionary quest, I guess we all get a visit from pluto from time to time. In my case, being PL 1st house, he isn´t knocking on the door, hes sitting here beside me on the couch! Flipping his baseball bat and practicing his quick draw with the .44 mag. It´s quite comforting...not!

I really dont know wth he wants. Kinda like a crazy guy sitting over here like, "nope, that´s not gonna work"

Even if it looks "good" to someone else´s standards.

I appreciate all the answers, some good thoughts to consider

Sunnyshadow » ram_goat I just grow tired of dying...

😂😭

I believe that is the essence of it though. Dying a hundred deaths. It´s pretty cool after the death part is over though

Sunnyshadow » ZynCitrus That is interesting and I agree with your thoughts on it. I could imagine saturn/pluto conjunction is exceptionally difficult. I guess that´s how we evolve. Build and destroy. It just seems counter productive in a way, but the way you said it makes sense

"you can´t revive yourself without being dead first... you can´t rebuild without destruction"


So basically our first drafts are shit. And our second, and third, and......

AlsaceTX » Sunnyshadow I have front row seats to this. Partner has Saturn/Pluto conjunct and straddling her D/C. Saturn in Scorpio in the 8th and Pluto in Libra in the 7th. Bless her little heart. She has squares lined up through 2027.

Sunnyshadow » AlsaceTX The first and most intense transit I studied to date was pluto square natal moon. Was about a year ago. I wasnt sure I was gonna make it there for a little while. Deep emotional transformation is the only way I can describe it. Didnt know which way to turn. Kinda felt like crawling into the fetal position for a few months, which is basically what I did

AlsaceTX » Sunnyshadow Yeah, since we are measuring scars...try transit pluto square chiron and transit chiron square pluto at the same time. It´s like a soul enema.

You crack me up man. Peace.

Sunnyshadow » AlsaceTX You too. Thanks for taking the time to give those good replies. I thought they were very informative (and funny)

Astro-Seek.com » rohini moon System message: Post has been written by user Moon_Queen, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Yes, that is it!

I´m not that rich in English words and phrases and cannot use language well enough to explain in detail, so I rather stick to basics and I´m glad you recognized that core of what I´m trying to say.

thank you

dani_mae1 “ almost seems like no matter how well you try to appease pluto, it´s still gonna destroy something. What say you?”

Agreed, I have Pluto Saturn (and Moon) conjunction natally. It’s been a wild ride of a life. However after all these years I just accept this is necessary change in my life and choose to embrace my better self after every death and rebirth. I get weary sometimes for sure. But there’s an underlying spark I go to in those times and utilize to motivate myself back to my path.

Sunnyshadow Alot of good replies, I appreciate the input. It seems like pluto is a purifying planet. Destroying what is no longer serving our highest self. So I guess that´s a good thing, although it can be painful.

In my case, since I´m fixed sign dominant, it just makes it more painful I would guess. I try to hold onto things way too long, maybe even a fear of change

Edit: although I would like to add, since perfection is unobtainable, pluto never runs out of work. Job security

nikkia » ram_goat I like this

"Like maggots in a wound, they only eat the dead flesh,
but they leave the living tissue unharmed. That is Pluto.
If the decay is chaotic then Pluto conforms to it. His real
business is death followed by renewal & rebirth."

Well said !

goldenlion32 Pluto is something else. I believe I agree with something I heard from Jeffrey Green Wolfe, that was similar to the lines of Pluto needs to kill everything first. And I can vouch for this in my experience. Saturn seems more like the Jail Warden and kind of annoying because it delays cleaning up the mess of Pluto unless you choose to gain the right tools, methods, techniques, values, morals, and ethics before Saturn Releases you into success.

Although, I can´t say it´s pleasant all the time with either one.

Capricorn Pluto is the death of me in so many ways in destroying the "old world" and obviously, in 2020 my world is nothing like it was once was in 2008 when it began. Perhaps shuffling through a lot of karma and dharma and learning about the shadow and light of Capricorn. Organized Crime Versus the average business, jobs, and co-workers.

In Sagittarius Pluto I worked for many Christian Boss´s, and they were all quite honest and in Capricorn Pluto I´ve learned more about the darker side of Humanity.

Not sure what Aquarius Pluto will do in my experience. I know Scorpio Pluto was even darker with Uranus in Capricorn, Neptune in Capricorn.

JayJayAstrology I think Pluto insists on evolution. This doesn´t seem to me to be anti-structural in particular. To evolve means to slowly change - to become what you are already inherently.

I think people have a hard time with the outer planets because they all ask us to change one way or another - and we humans don´t like to change all that much - or - at least, we find it challenging. So, the way we respond to Pluto, Neptune and Uranus - how ready we are to do what they ask - can make a big difference in how we experience their transits.

Even Saturn can evolve - it is like Gorilla Tape - it´s strong - it holds things together very well - but it can tear and wear down - it can be made pliable in time - it can lose its stickiness. Even Saturn can evolve.

Pluto doesn´t disregard structure - but it very much takes glee in eroding things that are no longer useful and in evolving what is authentic and real.

Sunnyshadow » JayJayAstrology That makes sense. Do you think the way most people are tied to lots of obligations, makes for better or worse evolutionary progress?

Like for instance, being tied down by debt, house payment, a secure but unfulfilling job, etc. etc.

Alot of those things seem good and favorable to people, but may not be part of our evolutionary journey. In fact, may be hindrances to it

I would imagine the stories of people who "went crazy" and abandoned the comfortable but boring life in search of something more meaningful were under the effect of Pluto. As one example. I guess the exact opposite could be true. Someone who gave up living under a bridge to become a productive member of society??