Birth time

September 3, 2020 at 13:43 (UT/GMT)
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com
System message: Post has been written by user alphagemini, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Birth time
As an accurate time of birth is vital for determining the Angles of a chart and the subsequent houses etc., I wonder what you all think is the actual time of birth. Is it the first breath? The moment the head appears? The start of labour? All these things don´t happen in a second. Its usually a case of several minutes after the onset of actual arrival and first cry etc..

Another thing, although I was present at the births of my children, and wanted an exact time, the pressures of the delivery room obstruct the process. The wonder of seeing the baby diverts the mind from pure time keeping. For thses reasons I suspect that most reported birth times are not very accurate at all. Most I guess are +/- ten minutes or so.

What is the general take on this?

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September 3, 2020 at 14:32
(Scorpio) Promethean_Soul
Alpha this is one of the most debatable subject in astrology community. And for this reason many astrologers firstly rectificate chart and then they determine exact birth time. But i am not sure if rectification really works. I tried to find out in my chart this and i have had conclusion +-10 minutes.
My own thought is when a baby took first breath it is his birth time. Because life starts with first air. And asc is our health. But i respect also other thoughts . First breath seems more logical to me
September 3, 2020 at 15:46
(Scorpio) Promethean_Soul » Promethean_Soul
Blue your sysgyzy ( before birth last new or full moon ) 10:25 Pisces. Almuten Venus and jupiter. İn your chart mostly Venus fits and rectify your MC to Venus. And you can use this time as your birth time
September 7, 2020 at 05:12
(Leo) Red Lion
You can close in on birth time by reading the descriptions of the Sabian Symbols surrounding your Asc.
September 7, 2020 at 05:54
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com
System message: Post has been written by user Prima✿, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Finally somebody mentions this :75:
I am also uncertain how birth time is calculated
And I may agree that some birth times are not accurate 🤔
September 7, 2020 at 07:17
(Cancer) Anikey » astro-flame
Same here, certificate says 15.00, rectification says 14.41. My mom kept saying 14.40 to me so they did give or tell her the time exactly, but by the time they got to writing it down, it was 15.00 - probably just rounded it to the full hour :61:
September 7, 2020 at 07:58
(Aries) astro-flame » Anikey
LOL yeah. 19 minutes - that´s a huge difference (astrologically speaking, especially for prognostics).

About the rounding up - I think last year Petr9 rolled out the statistics about times of birth in certificates and all the times ending in ´5´ (:05, :15, :25 etc) had higher rates than ending in ´1´, ´2´, ´3´ and all the other non-rounded times. The times ending in ´0´ were even higher, especially the half-hour and full hour mark!

I think Petr9 initiated that thread himself so it should be easy to find on the forum
September 7, 2020 at 08:06
(Cancer) Anikey » astro-flame
That makes perfect sense... When my daughter was born, the nurse said 11:11.. 11:10,she rounded it and I heard it :22: not really in the mood for arguing when you are on an operating table :61: but yeah, I count the former although her certificate gives the latter - not a big difference as mine lol :4:
September 7, 2020 at 08:32
(Sagittarius) goldenlion32
I would think the moment of Labor would be way off since some mothers like myself, the water broke at 6:30 A.M. and ended at 10 P.M. And because of Scorpio Pluto had to have help coming out because of Pelvic Bone was in the way. So that´s a long time. Which the actual birth seems to be very accurate when he was out with events.
September 7, 2020 at 11:21
(Aries) astro-flame
I personally prefer the first breath criteria because at the moment we take our first breath the process of independent life begins (independent as in "existing on your own, outside of your mother´s body").

When we take the first breath, we start the continual process of the inhale-exhale cycles that only ends with death. Besides, the beginning of labor or even crowning does not automatically guarantee the beginning of life. I mean, with the current level of medicine the survival rate is much-much higher, but not so long ago, at the beginning of the 20th century it was more common that a baby does not survive the process of labor (Hemingway´s "Farewell to Arms" comes to mind). Actually, in 3rd world countries this rate is pretty high still
September 7, 2020 at 15:50
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com » Promethean_Soul
System message: Post has been written by user MarvinReal, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Try to apply Animodar on my chart. Which birth time it shows?
September 7, 2020 at 15:57
(Leo) Sunnyshadow » astro-flame
That´s basically the same thing she was saying
September 7, 2020 at 16:05
(Aries) astro-flame » Sunnyshadow
:63: you´re getting me confused... who´s "she"? I thought the author of the thread was saying " I wonder what you all think is the actual time of birth." so I expressed my take on it :27:
September 7, 2020 at 16:07
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com » astro-flame
System message: Post has been written by user MarvinReal, who already deleted profile on this website:
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I agree, astro-flame. The first breath outside of womb should be the most reliable criteria.

I once tested hypothetical chart of my never born brother who was lost due to miscarriage. His chart for approximate conception plus nine months was very bad. But even there is a problem of premature babies (preterm infants). That would be very interesting research.

Indeed. That´s why even in England was an average of 8 kids ´total fertility rate´ before WWI. Because about five or seven of them are going to die. Nowadays is a lower risk.
September 7, 2020 at 16:11
(Aries) astro-flame » MarvinReal
you know, there´s another side of this too. Now, with planned Cesarean being used more and more often (in the states, at least) it is possible to chose the time and thus do an astro-correction of the birth chart (e.g. put the negative planets into weak/cadent houses, put the strong planets into angular, wait for some negative transit to pass or at leas become a separating one, etc)
September 7, 2020 at 16:19
(Leo) Sunnyshadow » astro-flame
The post I quoted you on. It´s no big deal. I was just pointing out that she was saying the same thing, :27:
September 7, 2020 at 16:24
(Leo) Sunnyshadow
I got a kinda interesting story of my birth. My mom was nearing her due date, I mean it must´ve been really close. And my grandmother didn´t want me born on the 13th :61: she must have been superstitious. So they induced labor on the morning of the 12th. Then I didn´t want to come out so they performed a C-section to get me out.

Must be what´s wrong with me. :1:

I would have been ok with the 13th I think
September 7, 2020 at 16:36
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com » astro-flame
System message: Post has been written by user MarvinReal, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Yeah. I guess it´s possible to slightly adjust birth time. I don´t have any modern information by how long, but I suppose few minutes in acute cases and few hours in stable cases. I may be completely wrong.
September 7, 2020 at 16:39
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com » Sunnyshadow
System message: Post has been written by user MarvinReal, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Cool story. :37:
Yes. You could perhaps have a better chart.
September 7, 2020 at 16:56
(Aries) astro-flame » MarvinReal
No, not slightly. You can plan a Cesarean section operation for a specific date around the due date so unless there is a premature birth...

In our astrology school we were given an example of how important the fixed stars are: an astrologer had a client who asked to select the best chart for the birth time and had her son at that specific time (had the operation). Unfortunately, the astrologer wasn´t too qualified and didn´t check the fixed stars where Mars was right on Antares and also Mars ruled the first house (physical body). So the boy was growing up smart, talented, had straight A´s and took prizes in competitions, science projects, etc. But was constantly getting into accidents, too, getting hurt pretty badly...
September 7, 2020 at 16:57
(Aries) astro-flame » Sunnyshadow
Lol, I see :-) Like I said - I was confused because I didn´t see that other post :17:
September 7, 2020 at 17:10
(Leo) Sunnyshadow » MarvinReal
Yeah, I would rather let nature take its course. But they didn´t ask me! :4:

Kinda unusual though. I wonder what difference it made. Although there´s nothing I can do about it. I think I read how pluto in 1st or maybe it was saturn in 12th is related to a traumatic birth. Weird
September 8, 2020 at 08:50
(Sagittarius) goldenlion32 » astro-flame
I think I´d prefer not to predict a timing of birth for that reason. Of course, I have Saturn in Taurus which is about letting a child come naturally by it´s own free will and free choice. Example: Wild Life rarely have man interfering in the birth of their young in nature.

In the Zoo and farms they perhaps assist, or force an animals birth, but before we ever decided to interfere it was a natural birth.

For humans it´s obvious some women may need assistance if their lives and the babies lives are stake. When other women have started to pressure doctors or doctors pressure the patient it´s simply where we are determining when a child is born and perhaps creating some type of karma with that child.

At least when the child choose by free will it is what the soul desired to experience for growth, evolution, and it´s own purposes.

I just read an article yesterday, they´re starting to experiment on whether to try to bring brain dead person back to life. Which I feel is quite against nature as well.

We already know there can be severe brain damage to individual when they´ve died for a few minutes, and then keeping them alive, and experimenting on them and bringing them back to life, what kind of quality of life will they have?

As a Nurse Aide I already know a Vegetable State, they have no quality of life, and in a Coma they have no quality of life. They lay in a bed for most of their life not using their muscles and joints and have all kinds of issues. They need 24 hour care.

We love interfering in both birth and death and feel we are "God" at times. Which then creates a lot of pain and suffering for whatever outcome results from experimentation.
September 8, 2020 at 10:05
(Aries) astro-flame » goldenlion32
that´s a deeply philosophical debate we´re starting here :98:

One could argue that any kind of interference into a natural birth is then considered creating some type of karma with the child. And when I say "any kind of interference" I mean any medical assistance whatsoever starting with pre-natal care like ultra-sounds, blood tests and what have you. Human knowledge accumulated over the centuries now allows birth and infant mortality rates to be considerably below the natural/historical norm. Isn´t that changing a lot in a life of each individual baby? A child that was getting tangled in the umbilical cord could have died but was saved by modern doctors. Or this child could have received brain damage and live a life of misery and extreme difficulty... Should we be against the doctors who try to make things better because it is not natural?

Of course, there are cases when poorly qualified doctor makes things worse and the example of that astrologer was exactly that - an example of poor level of professionalism.

Another point here is that maybe I´m coming off in a wrong way and you´re getting an impression that I think everyone should have c-sections and elect time for them. Absolutely not. But as a Nurse Aide I´m sure you understand that this procedure could be the best option in cases where it is the safest way to deliver the baby (e.g. low-lying placenta, breech position, having triplets or quadruplets, etc).

And in case of a planned c-section, making an astrological election for the time of birth is no different than using modern medicine. You´re simply using accumulated human knowledge, which is now becoming available not only to the elite (in the past doctors and astrologers alike were serving exclusively to the rich and the privileged). So this knowledge is helping to make the child´s life better. The question of karma here is hinged on the result of astrologer´s work.

Finally, about karma. There is this general idea I´m getting here that soul growth and development is necessarily obtained only through suffering and hardships in life. This is quite the individualistic approach but people do not exist in a vacuum, we´re a part of the collective.

Let´s imagine a chart, where there is a potential for becoming a great inventor in science, technology, medicine or whatever else. Let´s say that the mother needs a c-section for medical reasons. Finally, let´s say that choosing the day and time randomly will lead to a chart with serious afflictions to the 1st house from the 8th and astrological signatures that indicate suicide. Would that be really the best choice? Yes, that´ll give the person the chance to try and do some personal growth but if they fail and kill themselves (causing pain to loved ones, by the way) the humanity loses the chance to evolve, grow and develop collectively. Also, if the chart is corrected astrologically and the person doesn´t have suicidal tendencies and goes on to realize their potential fully and to become a great inventor - how is that not considered growth or evolving? :63:

just throwing my thoughts out there and highlighting again - I don´t think everybody should get c-sections (and elect times with astrology). I think women who are already choosing to have c-sections for personal or medical reasons can also use this tool (astrology).

I have much more to say about the free will paradox here but my post is already turning into a novel, so I´ll end it here :6:
September 8, 2020 at 10:37
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com
System message: Post has been written by user alphagemini, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Reading all the posts on here in response to my original question underlines my concern about birth timing. I have a suspicion that transits shortly after birth are important. If a great pattern with one of its planets rising happened during the first few minutes of life I think it must have some effect. I know this is not conventional thinking (that Sun/Uranus conjunction again!).

Let´s face it, birth is only one event in the millions of years it takes to create a present human, or any other animal for that matter. It may be that we carry with us planetary patterns that need to be worked through in this very short physical life. I think good rectification should sort this.
September 8, 2020 at 16:49
(Sagittarius) goldenlion32 » astro-flame
I wasn´t aiming the answer at you. Naturally I know in emergency situations C-sections are performed, but the Doctor doesn´t consult an astrologer, he uses Medical Technology or manual methods of checking the health of the baby.

I know some women, midwives, doctors who will make appointments on the day they desire for non-emergency methods. Why they´ve all chosen to participate has multi-variables.

There is always karma and dharma being created in every situation.

I just believe when you bring in Astrology it´s kind of like the KRS Astrologer or other Vedic Astrologers believe from Ancient Sage teachings that when you use Astrology you can take on the karma of situations.

So if one is suicidal because an astrologer chose this day and say there is indicators in the chart that an astrologer should be able to recognize when planning the event, they have created a situation where karma can be playing out. If you´re going by Vedic Teaching of reincarnation, you understand that perhaps in a past life this Astrologer might have been the victim of this soul coming into the world. And therefore, maybe weighing and balancing the scales. Even if one is a Doctor they may have been the patient in a former life and experimented on. So when you understand how the Astrology can be weighing and balancing the karma from their perspective and teachings, you´re only switching places and finding resolution and clearing the karma or dharma in such situations.

If you read some of things like I have where some claim to be in WWII, experimented on, were in gas-chambers, they may perceive they are reincarnated now. Which this is all theory of course, but there are a lot of individuals that go through past life regression, research these experiences, find photographs, and there´s even a case I seen where they died in the same area in this life time as they crashed in previous life time if I´m remember right.

I believe what we do is all free will and free choice. We create and co-create the situation. As in WWII there are Doctors who experimented, harmed Twins and Mothers and search of the perfect human race. Here we are in 2020 in Uranus in Taurus and Uranus in Gemini and what kind of experiments will we create and co-create.

in Evolutionary Astrology, I think they have more of these conversations because they´re studying the trauma and wounding of the soul.

Where Vedic does have a lot of information they´ve collected for a very long time with Reincarnation. Along with the Asian Cultures. I think from the stand point of Eastern Philosophies is the idea that even when casting charts for relationships with Synastry there can be a karmic mess, which we´ve seen in the Twin Flame Community for the last 12 years with different Generations playing their part. Which you kind of grasp the theory here as well perhaps their is some karma playing out with Spiritual Teachers from Past lives. And it doesn´t have to be a major event, but it can be something small and for a short time.

You can say as Astrologers we are pioneering now in 2020 and it is coming back into focus after many decades where it was Taboo, and the Generations are correlating their life experiences. Which if you read the old astrology books the certain symbolism, meaning, and descriptions have changed in our times since Uranus representing the internet didn´t exist then. Our transportation is different. There are many things changing in our experience.

While there are debatable questions, this is where Generation Z may play a major role in determining what is ethical and non-ethical in the future, because by Human Nature we can take Experimentation so far into places that might be quite destructive to civilization as a whole. We´ve done this before.

How far do we allow people to be go? This is always the question. Which here in the Netherlands, it is all new to me some of the choices made here in the Medical Community since it is a different culture. Which you can find in many different cultures what is acceptable and not acceptable in what a collective community may agree on what they experience.

This is part of me being here to evolve and grow away from the U.S. Culture where it might be considered "Democratic" or too "Liberal".

Aquarius is kind of the Wild West when it comes to Branches of Science whether Medical, Mental Health, Space, Housing, or what ever we invent. Still in some cases a simple bridge might take the life of many people, and that inventor might carry that karma into the next life according to Vedic.

Energy is never destroyed as I keep hearing and reading.


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