House systems - Discussions, questions

Anikey I am interested to hear this as well!

When I first saw the Whole Signs, its clean cuts and symmetry were such a huge relief for my mind...at least for a beginner like myself, it´s definitely easier to wrap my head around

jcb_412 » Anikey It´s definitely an interesting topic. Did you notice a difference between your whole sign chart compared to say your placidus chart?

Anikey » jcb_412 Yes!

Placidus to WS: Pluto 11th/12th, Sun 8th/9th, Chiron 6th/7th, Venus 9th/10th,Mars 10th/11th.

Haven´t yet had the time to process these and compare, but it´s definitely on my ´to do´ list

How about you?

jcb_412 » Anikey Placidus to WS:

Moon: 11/12
Venus:10/11
Mars: 1/2
Jupiter: 12/1
Neptune: 5/6
Node: 3/4
Lilith: 12/1
Chiron: 10/11

Big changes right? This is why I´m so curious! Thanks Anikey!

Steve Guesshow Well, I think in constructions of houses there would be some necessarities: AS= 1st house and MC=10th house. Horoscopic axes are the very base, root of all astrology. The other thing is, how to divide other houses.
We can divide equator (Regiomontanus), prime vertical (Campanus) or we can divide points in time and space (Koch, Placidus). Personally, I like Pisa/Krusinski housesystem. It divide main circle with four points: AS-nadir-DS-zenith. It seems to be very similar to Campanus...but it is not. Campanus ignore AS and DS points and instead use EP and WP (real astronomic east and west, which, obviously is not the same as AS and DS.
Other, symbolic house systems, eg. equal, seems like nonsense to me, but it is only my opinion and everyone is free to use what he/she likes...

Promethean_Soul I live in turkey and from my country placidius work quite well . Whole sign doesn´t work with me but sometimes I see my some planets have both qualities two houses. I think we need to take into consideration also Equal houses. İt works better than whole sign. Whole sign in my experience works very bad and many people make mistakes because of that. For people who live far north or far south i advise them to use equal house.

jcb_412 » Steve Guesshow I don´t know much about the houses but your post has helped see it a little clearer, thanks for that!

"I like Pisa/Krusinski housesystem. It divide main circle with four points: AS-nadir-DS-zenith. "

Can you tell me why you prefer pisa/Krusinki housesystem and explain the four points pls?

jcb_412 » Promethean_Soul I´ve only started to research house systems but I can already see there is a huge difference in some vs others. I´m curious as to why you advice those far north and south to use equal house?

Astro-Seek.com » Promethean_Soul System message: Post has been written by user Dharma212, who already deleted profile on this website:
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"Whole sign in my experience works very bad and many people make mistakes because of that."


"Works very bad"? What are you even talking about? :-), haha. Whole Signs is the most ancient house system. It is the only house system used in Vedic astrology, and the first and most ancient house system used in Tropical.


You really need to research this, as I actually did. I´ve been using Whole Signs ever since I started in astrology. And 99.9% (no exaggerations at all) of all of my "clients" (I don´t charge) find their "new houses" and explanations way more accurate than they did with Placidus or other house systems. And I do 2-3 (sometimes even more) readings a day, 7 days a week, non-stop. And I am talking about full readings.


Up to date, 10 out of 10 of all my private "clients" immediately switched to Whole Signs after my detailed analysis.


Astrology is a "mathematical science/art". It represents Life, and life has symmetry, a correct balance and correspondence, etc. Life - all of its manifestations - are symmetrical in nature. Just as mathematics is. There are "no special rules" or "contradictions" in math (or in Life).


Every house system (with the exception of perhaps "Equal Houses"), has its weaknesses, "exceptions to the rules", and inherent problems.


With Whole Signs, none, absolutely none, of those difficulties/contradictions arise. It is a perfectly symmetrical system with a correct/intuitive, one-to-one correspondence between one Whole sign and one whole house - as it should be. Originally, houses were not "separated" from the signs that represents them. Because it makes absolutely no sense to do so!


The ONLY reason Placidus is so much in use, is an historical reason; it has nothing to do with precision or effectiveness. But for that, one must actually research these things.


And those researches are there for those who are interested in them. Robert Hand - the greatest scholar in astrology - did a very in-depth research into house systems from an historical perspective. This took him a few years, and the use (and translation) and many ancient/original texts.


And a very interesting (one hour long or more) podcast is available, on why Placidus became one of the main house systems in use. This podcast, was recorded by another well known astrology scholar: Chris Brennan. Here it is:



https://theastrologypodcast.com/202…



And here is Robert Hand´s research:


https://www.arhatmedia.com/whole_si…



Now, if someone carefully study both of the above sources, then I would be more than willing to engage in a friendly debate about it. But without having actually done our research on it, saying such a thing as: "Whole sign in my experience works very bad and many people make mistakes because of that", is very misinformed to say the least.


Just saying, :-)).

Promethean_Soul » Dharma212 Dharma it is the most ancient system , yes true but in ancient time sidereal system and and tropical system has very close to each other.
For sidereal zodiac i think whole sign is only one system. I just want to ask you question? Have you ever asked why each planet is ruler this house , or even quaestiones anything about astrology? I question everything , i try to find out answers. I put my nick Promethean_soul is not empty word.
Ancient astrologers i respect. I try to get real hermetic knowledge. You know there are exaltation degrees for planets , for example for Jupiter is 15 degrees cancer and for taurus is 3 degrees Taurus. I did statistical researches , in taurus 27 degree we know there is Algol fixed star , moon works very strongly and it is 3 degree in sidereal. Jupiter works very strongly in leo 7-8 degrees because there is fixed stars asellius austtalis and asellius borealis , and more there is preasepe star cluster. İt has very strong affect. İn that placement jupiter´s declination is near 19 degree and it is declination of Arcturus. I try to understand this.
I question everything what i learn , my style can be very rebellious and i love it. İ harshly criticize many things my mc is in virgo and that is quite normal
Still in our times there are very few astrologers i respect . Why few? Majority of them learnt what other asrologers said. İt is the easiest way , i can study Venus is ruler of Taurus and libra , 10th house is career and social status and so on. İt is the way which we need to obey everything? I am sorry but I am not such person. I still questions many many things in astrology for improving it. İf i don´t ciritize how I can do that. I tried to use whole sign system in tropical zodiacs and results were always dissapointed. Any relation with planets and houses I by myself saw it .
Ancients astrologer were better than us even they were less clever and they have less knowledge. Why? Because they took a note everything in planet positions we do that now? Only we look at last and hey when this planet square that planet then this happened. We have technology but still we don´t know how to use it. I will open new subject about that what we can do for that. I have some ideas.
My rebellious side is not to all time critizie astrolgy but really to make contributions astrology even I am not amateur or professional. I opened a thread about Chiron. I question about it and ask who put this name in this asteroid, what we think about Chiron maybe all is different than what we think. I wrote , Chiron appeared to announce closing of Aquarian age. This is my thought. I just want modern astrologers to question every knowledge. Houses are the most problematic field. I saw 1th,2th, 3th,8tg,9th,10th,11th house worked but some of them different what we think. There must be real statistical analysis about houses. İn my experience whole sign works not good but we people must combine our experiences. I love Robert Hand , he is not only good astrologer but also historian.

Astro-Seek.com » Promethean_Soul System message: Post has been written by user Dharma212, who already deleted profile on this website:
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I am the most Uranian individual you would ever meet. I am a free thinker with my own mind even since I was 7-8. I never follow any "authority"; zero, none, nada. I am a researcher with a very solid background in science and advanced math. And I am a super Virgo who question and challenge everything and everyone.

And I´ve been doing astrology - from a research standpoint - for years!

So when I speak, I come from solid arguments based on my own research with hundreds of cases. And everything I explained in my previous reply, stood the test of empirical evidence and results. And it is sound and solid research.

Of course; you are entitled to your opinion. But it is only that; an opinion. Which doesn´t make it any less valid, of course.

I have tested Whole Signs with hundreds of cases, and it has always (100%) worked for me very accurately. And that´s the opinion of all my "clients", not just my own. And hundreds of astrologers use Whole Signs with the same degree of effectiveness than I do.

Anyway, thanks for your reply, .

Promethean_Soul » Dharma212 Dharma I love to discuss so much for finding truth. I don´t care to be right or wrong. I want to learn truth. I want to make brainstorming with people. I want to learn people´s own experiences. I respect your experiences. Believe me I feel astrology , in forum when people talk about something sometimes I don´t understand anything. When i see a chart quickly I see everything in chart. I don´t like to make wrong comments in a charts. I have a brother , whose asc is Aries , moon is conjunct with his asc and his MC conjunct with his MC. I know many astrologers make comments very differently but I know why his chart is like that. My mother didn´t want to give birth my youngest brother. She saw a dream , three young child warned her to give birth or else her life will not be good. My father threatened my mother to not give birth. But my mother made decision and gave birth my youngest brother. Why Neptune is in MC , because it is divine support from God. His moon conjunct with asc because it is my mother´s decision to give birth against threat of my father. He was born one day after solar eclipse. My mother still see him in her dreams as a child. My youngest brother has only pluto retrogate and other planets are not retrogate. Why? Because he is very young soul and he came to this world to learn as a young soul. we have so strong brotherhood. We have so strong connection. His moon is conjunct with my south node. My youngest brother´s mars is 17´21 Capricorn and my middle brother´s 17´22. So strange? Dharma I am not astrologer , i want to give you some insights. I do that without any expectations. You don´t need to accept my thoughts and i want people to question my thoughts. I just want people to find truth. You are experienced person about astrology and i am so glad to meet you. We will discuss many things it seems so

Neon_Mage I prefer whole signs because it describes me better, personally.

jcb_412 » Dharma212 I watched the video on the Astrology Podcast last night - great video, very insightful. Thanks for this!

Question, have you read or researched the book they mentioned in the video by Martin Gasten "Primary Directions: Astrology’s Old Master Technique"? If you have what is my best avenue in researching? I did a quick search online and found this:

http://www.martingansten.com/pd.php

Another question (if you don´t mind) in the video they mentioned Project Hindsight - what do you think about this?

I have Robert Hands "Planets in Transit & Planets in Composite". I also have Robert Pelletier books "Planets in Houses and Planets in Aspects", what say you about Pelletier’s work? Looks like I´ll be adding Robert Hand´s "Whole Sign Houses: The Oldest House System" eBook. I have a lot of spare time right now to finally read these books.

Thank you! I appreciate all information you´d think would be a good place to start!

jcb_412 I wanted to share something I found on this site with those who like me didn´t know it existed and has been super helpful on this topic.

"House Systems Calculator
Compare Astrology Houses Online"

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/a…

We can compare up to four house systems with this calculator!

This site never ceases to amaze me!

Promethean_Soul » jcb_412 Whole sign system works when is is used with sidereal zodiac. İt is my own thought. İn ancient times zodiac degrees nearly same in sidereal and tropical zodiacs. Ptolemy noticed precession of earth but at that time they had not very advanced devices. I would want to see how whole sign works in tropical zodiac. I know myself and i know how placidius work in my all transits. Because I was born a place near Mediterranean and not far from Egypt , mesopotamia so all ancient astrologers lived a place not far from me. House matter in astrology is very problematic

Anikey » jcb_412 Great find!

I just used it to compare and noticed that Placidus and Koch are almost identical, with one difference. I am wondering if are they generally that similar or just in this particular case?

stigmí » Dharma212 “ I have tested Whole Signs with hundreds of cases, and it has always (100%) worked for me very accurately. And that´s the opinion of all my "clients", not just my own.”

For me not. I have absolutely different charts as wholesign and placidus, it doesnt work and in fact i started to hate this promotion of whole sign system. In this modern way it seems to me very simple and out of context. I feel it just as fashionable thing primarily because it is ancient, but conditions and circumstaces of these ancient times are more deeper...

To make people to fit to picked houses system x) i call it astrology manipulation x))

My opinion

jcb_412 » Promethean_Soul Thank you for this explanation, I have so much to learn!

jcb_412 » Anikey Good question... When I did mine, they were also similar (placidus/Koch) but the others weren´t. Here is a snippet of mine:

Anikey » jcb_412 Same with me, here it is. Maybe someone experienced can help clarify this for us

For both of us, the WS chart looks completely different, we are not talking minor changes....

Astro-Seek.com » stigmí System message: Post has been written by user Dharma212, who already deleted profile on this website:
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"For me not."


Well, you are just ONE individual. And if it doesn´t "work" for you, then it doesn´t. However, I bet that I would be able to accurate read your chart in Whole Signs. Of course, you would just deny everything just to "prove" your point, haha. So no; I would not read your chart, ;-).


"I have absolutely different charts as wholesign and placidus, it doesnt work and in fact i started to hate this promotion of whole sign system."


I don´t base my professional opinion on emotions. I am a researcher.


"In this modern way it seems to me very simple and out of context."


Out of context? It is based on sound mathematics, I am afraid. Based on the laws of symmetry and correct correspondence and relationships. You are just uttering opinions not based on any actual arguments.


"I feel it just as fashionable thing primarily because it is ancient, but conditions and circumstaces of these ancient times are more deeper..."


With all due respect, but you don´t know what you are saying. Clearly, you haven´t even read the research about it, and don´t even understand it. Do so (actually read it and study it), as I did, and THEN we can debate based on ACTUAL arguments; not on emotions. That´s not debate. That´s just a display of human emotions.


"To make people to fit to picked houses system x) i call it astrology manipulation x))"


I show them - to all of them - the two versions of the interpretations - one based on Placidus, and another based on Whole Signs. And THEY, not me, invariably choose Whole Signs. If this is "manipulation", then I am afraid you are the only manipulator here, ;-).


"My opinion "


To which you are entitled. However, I don´t act based on "opinions". I act based on sound research and empirical evidence/data.


Take care,

stigmí » Dharma212 Thats virgo thing to pick something from context and talk about it (of course I know it with 3 planets in virgo). You analyzed my writing very monumental but I wrote nowhere, that I want to write about facts and I think that in fact you cant explain technicaly why are you choosing whole sign. I only reacted to yours: "I have tested Whole Signs with hundreds of cases, and it has always (100%) worked for me very accurately. And that´s the opinion of all my "clients", not just my own."

Even your empirical evidence and researches are opinions, dont deceive yourself. And people who use "my opinion" are not stupid. I just accept, that there are more connections, some make and some dont make me sense... It need to study all ancient to make whole picture... Maybe you have more knowledges, I dont care.

Astro-Seek.com » stigmí System message: Post has been written by user Dharma212, who already deleted profile on this website:
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"Maybe you have more knowledges, I dont care."

Not "maybe", ;-). And I definitely don´t care about your "opinions". I only care about facts, as I said. And I won´t keep up this nonsense with you. Take care. Learn to debate instead of just reacting, and maybe we can talk, ;-). Have a nice day.

stigmí » Dharma212 Till this moment I thought that we are debating
Ok...thanks for your sincere wishes