Pluto in 1st house vs Pluto in 12th

November 13, 2019 at 04:20 (UT/GMT)
(Pisces) fishscales
Pluto in 1st house vs Pluto in 12th
Wondering if the forum could help me out here...

Pluto in 1st house people:

How do you experience this placement?

Pluto in 12th house people:

Same question

Anyone who doesn´t have these placements but has an interpretive opinion, feel free to chime in

Reason I´m asking:

Whole signs give me Pluto in the first

Placidus gives me Pluto in the 12th

For this particular placement, for myself, I lean towards the Placidus house interpretation... Although I am by no means a basher of the whole sign system... I´ve found it to be accurate in many ways in my chart...

I´m hoping someone will say something that will tip the scales of my opinion one way or the other regarding this placement...

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November 13, 2019 at 04:41
(Aries) CrescentKitKat
I view the different house systems, quadrant(Placidus) vs whole signs, as distinct but complementary means for natal chart interpretation. I haven´t given specific or concrete assignations to the house systems, but I notice whole signs describes my family experience much more accurately than Placidus, but Placidus definitely describes core personality traits.

I´m curious to see if I could distill the subtleties down more, like does quadrant houses describe more intrinsic processes and whole signs more extrinsic experiences?
November 13, 2019 at 10:00
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com
System message: Post has been written by user MarvinReal, who already deleted profile on this website:
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I have similar situation like fishscales. It was always major mystery to me. All variants are sort of defendable.

It changes placements of all other planets as well.

Focusing on Pluto only ...

Placidus: Pluto in 11th
Campanus: Pluto in 12th
Whole Signs + Tropical: Pluto in 12th
Whole Signs + Sidereal: Pluto in 1st
November 13, 2019 at 10:00
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com
System message: Post has been written by user Mantzourana, who already deleted profile on this website:
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I know 3 people who have Pluto in their 1st house, and one of them has :160: :191:ASC. I don´t know anyone with :160: in their 12th.

From this experience, I can say that :160: in the 1st colors you Plutonian, it gives you some Scorpio characteristics.
You have the strongest intuition! You see 1 thing in your environment and you understand 100 hidden things! No one can lie to you because you will figure it out immediately.
You have an amazing ability to reborn after any bad situation! When something hurts you, you can delete it from your thought very easily and act like it never happened.
You don´t enjoy being in the spotlight, you prefer being behind the scenes.
You may be suspicious towards other people.
You may have some dark things inside you, maybe some dark thoughts that keep coming to your mind.

I hope I helped...
Do you have any of those characteristics?
November 13, 2019 at 10:19
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com
System message: Post has been written by user Olenna, who already deleted profile on this website:
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People with Pluto in 1st or on the ascendant embody Pluto`s energy very well into their personality and outward expression. They don`t see Pluto as a separate energy, they are it. Very conscious of their plutonian nature, and the rest of the world sees this in them.
Pluto in the 12th is one of the most difficult placements to have, because you have a very unconscious planet in a very unconscious house. These people will have a hard time seeing themselves clearly, their motivations and their behavior sometimes does not match.
One the positive manifestation this is a very intense psychic person, if Pluto is healthy and not on its negative manifestation, these people have strong healing ability, but it has to come from a good place and not distorted by manipulation or deceit.
Both placements are strong but for different reasons.
The aspects that Pluto has will change its expression.
November 13, 2019 at 12:52
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com
System message: Post has been written by user Yugen., who already deleted profile on this website:
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Pluto in 1st and 12th soon or late show their great power or tremendous weakness. Pluto´s great strength or weakness depends always on the signs and the aspects. Pluto in 12th might be the perfect anihiliated mystic, a very good doctor, a psyholog, a magician or a criminal in the worst scenario. I think that both of them are introvert and close persons. I dont mean that they are antisocial or that they cant have friends, but i think both dont share easily their secrets and personal life. Both of them may be isolated in certain periods, but isolation might be involuntarily for Pluto in 12th. Pluto in 1st might be the leader who creates a movement or stream. This is not so easy for Pluto in 12th. Pluto in 1st might be a dictator or the calm force, a very suggestive and strong person or a tyrant. It depends. Therefore he attracts or repel people. He might be totally alone, isolated or being followed by a crowd of friends and followers, but again i am not sure if he likes that for a long time. Deep inside he is selfsufficient or learns to be like that. Pluto in 12th is not so selfsuficient and his manipulative forces might be more subtle and underground. His loneliness is not always a choice and the supression of inner tension might lead easily a afflicted Pluto in 12st to serious illness. Unter specific circumstandes both persons might be very destructive for other people or for themselves, but both of them have great transformative, magnetic, healing powers. Both might be healers, mystics, doctors or psyhiatrists. I have met recently a girl with Pluto in 1st house. She is beautiful, very attractive and succesful, but also dark, with a strong interest for magic, occultism and all these things. We did not have many meetings, but i felt her as an extremelly close person, hiding some insecurities. I felt also that she was a little bit narcissist, besides it was impossible for me to educe personal informations. Other people who have met her, have the same feeling that she is very introvert. Pluto in 12th may experience problems with the law, prosecution, co-dependency, compluslve behaviour and victimization. A important issue for Pluto in 12th might be also exile, immigration and all these. Pluto in 1st learns more easily to be selfsufficient. Self-control is easier, subversion is less dangerous and loneliness is less painful. In good signs and aspects both guys are strong and succesful.

:92:
November 13, 2019 at 14:09
(Taurus) Astro-Seek.com » Yugen.
System message: Post has been written by user Yugen., who already deleted profile on this website:
=====
As for the Whole sign chart the answer is more simple. A indigo girl :6: told something very clever: every chart is like the personal fingerprints. Whole sign system is like puting a glove on the hand. Having the same chart with you thousands people born in so many different latitudes is itself a paradox. Only MC changes a few degrees. It is thesame paradox people born between 5.00 and 7.00 lets say having the same chart. All of them have same planets placements!?! omg No please, this is not only crazy, but also scary. A person born same time with you in another place of earth has a different destiny, qualities and temperament. A person born a few minutes after you can be totally different.
November 13, 2019 at 14:25
(Pisces) fishscales » CrescentKitKat
"I view the different house systems, quadrant(Placidus) vs whole signs, as distinct but complementary means for natal chart interpretation"

I feel the same way.

"I haven´t given specific or concrete assignations to the house systems, but I notice whole signs describes my family experience much more accurately than Placidus, but Placidus definitely describes core personality traits."

I´ve noticed similar things. In my case, whole signs seem to describe the external circumstances of my life better, while Placidus is better at delineating personality traits, etc.

"I´m curious to see if I could distill the subtleties down more, like does quadrant houses describe more intrinsic processes and whole signs more extrinsic experiences?"

Similar to what I said above... I´ve found Placidus to be a better system for the internal, and whole signs better for the external.

Is there really a distinction between our internal lives and what happens to us externally though? I don´t know. In some ways yes, in some no. Regarding this conversation, just reporting what I´ve noticed with my own chart using the two systems.

Great post, CKK
November 13, 2019 at 14:30
(Pisces) fishscales » MarvinReal
"Placidus: Pluto in 11th
Campanus: Pluto in 12th
Whole Signs + Tropical: Pluto in 12th
Whole Signs + Sidereal: Pluto in 1st"

Now you´re really stirring the pot Marvin :4:

I´ve been wondering about sidereal placements recently too... I have some theories, but I guess you could say they´re in the embryonic stage...

For now, I´m trying to solve this Placidus/whole sign conundrum, though the position I can see myself eventually taking is that there´s merit to both... It depends on the perspective from which you´re studying the chart, and your primary purposes for practicing astrology...
November 13, 2019 at 15:02
(Pisces) fishscales » Mantzourana
"Do you have any of those characteristics?"

OK I´ll play...

Your statements are about Pluto in the first...

"I can say that :160: in the 1st colors you Plutonian, it gives you some Scorpio characteristics.
You have the strongest intuition! You see 1 thing in your environment and you understand 100 hidden things"

Yeah, I can relate to all of those things. I´m going to play devil´s advocate here though: I have moon trine Pluto, which could account for me feeling Plutonian. Also Mars in the 8th which can give good intuition and penetrating perception. I feel like I notice and understand alot of things that I can´t put into words. So both of those placements together could possibly give qualities similar to a first house Pluto...

"No one can lie to you because you will figure it out immediately"

You could say this is true. I also have the Pisces side though. Sometimes I´ve been lied to and "believed" it because I wanted to...it was easier to, or it fit in better with my concept of the way things "should be". Deep down, the truth was evident. I´ve pretty much grown out of this though...

"You have an amazing ability to reborn after any bad situation!"

I don´t know about being reborn, but I´m pretty good at carrying on...

"When something hurts you, you can delete it from your thought very easily and act like it never happened."

OK, I thought all your other interpretations for Pluto in the first were good, but I have to disagree with this one. I don´t think deleting or forgetting a hurtful situation and acting like it never happened is a Plutonian trait at all. I think wanting to delete the causes of the situation...or the person that caused the situation...is a far more Plutonian trait :3:

Maybe at its highest level, Pluto can take painful experiences and transform them into growth... On the more common level though, I think the more typical Plutonian response to hurtful experiences and the people who caused them is revenge.

Do I do this? Mmm.. I have been known to. Again, this is something I have to consciously direct myself away from...

"You don´t enjoy being in the spotlight, you prefer being behind the scenes."

Kind of mixed here. I think I do better work behind the scenes though. Less opportunity for ego to interfere.

"You may be suspicious towards other people."

Yes

"You may have some dark things inside you, maybe some dark thoughts that keep coming to your mind."

Yes

So bottom line, according to your interpretations, which I thought were pretty good, save for that one :1:, it sounds like I have some Pluto in the first characteristics...a score for whole signs.

The problem is, I´d probably get alot of positive hits if I took a Pluto in the 12th quiz too...

My moon trine Pluto makes this all the more confusing... Hard to tell if it´s giving me false reads on the other placements...
November 13, 2019 at 15:04
(Pisces) fishscales
Lots of quality responses on this thread... I will try to get to the rest later...
November 15, 2019 at 03:12
(Pisces) fishscales » Olenna
Again... I relate to the descriptions of both placements...

I think my Pluto influence is more hidden...like Pluto in the 12th... People I know would probably say it´s more overt...like Pluto in the first...

I get alot of employees telling me that other employees are afraid of me... Wtf... This is not what I see myself projecting at all.. But it jives with Pluto in the first

Sometimes I wonder if my moon trine Pluto tends to internalize my Pluto more... So even if it´s in the first, it is internalized on some level being in aspect to the moon...maybe that´s why I feel I don´t project it...???
November 15, 2019 at 03:36
(Pisces) fishscales » Yugen.
"Having the same chart with you thousands people born in so many different latitudes is itself a paradox. Only MC changes a few degrees. It is thesame paradox people born between 5.00 and 7.00 lets say having the same chart. All of them have same planets placements!?! omg No please, this is not only crazy, but also scary. A person born same time with you in another place of earth has a different destiny, qualities and temperament. A person born a few minutes after you can be totally different."

To recap, in the whole sign system, two people born with Libra rising, one at 2 degrees, and one at 27, will have their entire first house in the sign of Libra.

The ascending degree will obviously still be different though, regardless of the house system used. (As will the IC, DC, and MC.) The aspects to the angles will also carry over in the whole sign system. As will all the other aspects. (Of particular importance here are the aspects involving fast moving planets.)

However...

There would be alot less room for variety in the whole system when it comes to house position.

Basically, if you´re s Taurus rising with Mars in Taurus, Mars will always be in the first house in the whole sign system, regardless of what time you were born

I never thought of this...

Definitely food for thought...
November 16, 2019 at 00:22
(Aquarius) Leo Moon
Well according to this site .....are You mysterious,strange and hard to understand or just a violent person who hangs out with lowlifes???

The first is the 1st house and the latter is the 12th house.

So it’s a toss up Fish!! :4:

I myself am a violent lowlife according to astroseek description of Pluto in the 12th. Though with it in Virgo I am very precise in my lowlifery.

Goes along with ye ole butcher’s karma.

Seriously, a 12th house placement in Libra would make You interested in the undercurrents of life, like astrology. I would think Libra is a good sign for weighing life’s mysteries.

Nola was just talking about having a planet on the edge of two houses and how Astro will put it in the next house when it is close.

I have read that some astrologers consider both houses have influence when it is that close.

I have Pluto in Virgo in the 12th house and certainly have an interest in the underlying currents of life.

It says I may be a slave to following rules, perhaps my own. I’m Certainly not a rule follower in the traditional sense.

Still getting a handle on Pluto and Uranus in the 12th house.
Powerful planets in a murky house with the exactness of Virgo.

I doubt either is too “happy”
in Virgo.
November 16, 2019 at 00:42
(Pisces) fishscales » Leo Moon
"So it’s a toss up Fish!! :4:"

Pretty much :4:

"I myself am a violent lowlife according to astroseek description of Pluto in the 12th. Though with it in Virgo I am very precise in my lowlifery."

:61:
Love it

I have and still do hang out with people that I don´t consider to be lowlifes but that certain segments of society, probably do.

As a musician, I´m sure you have too...

Oh well (insert middle finger emoji here)

Probably sums up how we feel about it
November 16, 2019 at 00:47
(Aquarius) Leo Moon » fishscales
You are right about me hanging with people who don’t fit socially ......my ex had a good word.

Raggedy Edger.
November 16, 2019 at 01:05
(Pisces) fishscales » Leo Moon
Raggedy Edgers listening to Raggedy Edgar...

Who I never knew played sax, btw...
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November 16, 2019 at 01:20
(Libra) polareyezd
I have Pluto in the 12th in Libra and Scorpio rising.. I´m not sure which one is which anymore. I think that 12th house Pluto makes you more secretive. It´s no secret I have a Scorpio look but it is a secret I have a Scorpio undercurrent and thought life. You won´t know until it´s time I decide. so it´s as if I have Pluto in the first with the Scorpio rising and Pluto in the 12th in Libra. I wish someone could please give me answers because I´m not too sure how to answer that question. It´s a very good question.
November 16, 2019 at 01:41
(Aquarius) Leo Moon » fishscales
Yes , Edgar plays a bunch of instruments.

Saw him recently. Deep Purple, Alice Cooper and Edgar Winter Group with Rick Deringer.

Good show! In Camden NJ at the BB&T center.

Seems like all the good shows are there in the last few years.
It’s a good place. Excellent sound!
November 16, 2019 at 02:33
(Leo) Sunnyshadow
I would like to contribute to this thread, and maybe I can, but having moon opposite pluto adds a whole nother dimension to my pluto 1st house placement. What I read about pluto in 1st house sounds accurate. Strong willed, direct, control issues based out of survival issues, secretive, distant, doesnt share feelings for fear of manipulation (mysterious) like being left alone, go through many crisis and transformations. I think the moon element mixed in there adds alot of emotional "stuff" and possibly makes it hard to describe the effects of astrological placements :4:
November 16, 2019 at 17:42
(Taurus) IIyyaarr13
I think of all that is similar like Pluto parallel both midheavens, eighth house Aries, :160: :191: Ascendant, my past-life´s :178: rising.
The feeling was always with me that someone will try to beat me with their own great angularity weight, even though I have intensity and fixedy in great measure!
November 17, 2019 at 09:30
(Taurus) nutelina » Mantzourana
Oh that´s interesting, sounds so much like my father. Nobody seems to know the time of his birth. But he has Venus in Virgo so that can be very contrasting with me...
November 18, 2019 at 02:38
(Pisces) fishscales » Sunnyshadow
"I think the moon element mixed in there adds alot of emotional "stuff" and possibly makes it hard to describe the effects of astrological placements :4:"

This is the same problem I have with my moon trine Pluto...

Hard to pin down Pluto´s house position when it often feels like it´s "everywhere", being it contact with the moon...
November 19, 2019 at 05:29
(Gemini) We3Meggs
Pluto in 12th - in both placidus and whole sign.
Also :160: :198: :159:
It´s a rediculously tough placement..

I actually just recently learned that a lot of my difficulties in life stem from that placement.
November 20, 2019 at 07:15
(Pisces) TimeSciences
The following is rectified chart data for my father. Pluto is 1st house. I will tell more later but you can make a chart using the info (sorry I can´t give a link to it here!)


Extended settings: House system, Aspects, Orbs

TD

Date of Birth (local time):

7 July 1928 - 04:10  (Pacific Standard Time
UT/GMT -8:00h´)" style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153); font-weight: normal; text-decoration: underline; cursor: pointer;">PST)

Universal Time (UT/GMT):

7 July 1928 - 12:10  

Local Sidereal Time (LST):

23:01:10

House system:

Placidus system

Latitude, Longitude:

37°46´N, 122°25´W

City:

San Francisco

Country:

 United States (US), CA
---
Despite this only being a rectification of my father´s birth time many things are ´spot on´ beginning with the interpretation for his Sun in 1st house :
 Sun - Self, individuality, personality

The Sun symbolises a personal identity. It shows us areas where the person should learn to be independent, where he should fulfill his potential, differentiate himself from others and shine. The position of the Sun may tell us which profession would best suit the character of a person.

Sun in Cancer

Cancer is ruled by the Moon, which gives people born under this sign great emotional sensitivity. They are thus often reserved and shy. Their reasoning, thinking and behaviour are very dependent on their mood, and this is the reason why they like to depend on people with strong personalities and choose partners they can lean on. more -»

Sun in the 1st House

The Sun in the first house forms a powerful connection with the ascendant and creates personality that corresponds with its zodiac sign. It gives people a sense of identity, vitality and self-confidence. People are more spontaneous and outgoing because their personality is more complete. The Sun gives them determination, leadership skills and initiative. Their thinking is optimistic and cheerful.

Sun aspects

Trine Moon (8°03’, Applying)
Conjunction Venus (1°37’, Separating)
Square Uranus (7°42’, Separating)
Conjunction Pluto (1°32’, Applying)
Trine MC (1°03’, Applying)
Parallel Venus (0°34’)
Parallel Pluto (0°58’)
Parallel Ascendant (0°46’)
Parallel Node (0°59’)

--
Pluto shows as ´parallel´ :
Pluto in the 1st House

Pluto in the first house means intensity and strong will. These people have magnetically attractive nature and a considerable amount of egoism. They want power. Sometimes they may show initiative, but they do not have a good ability to cooperate with others, even if it is indicated by their ascendant, because people under the influence of Pluto are too bossy and power-hungry. These people are somewhat mysterious, strange and difficult to understand.

Pluto aspects

Conjunction Sun (1°32’, Applying)
Conjunction Venus (0°04’, Separating)
Trine MC (2°35’, Applying)
Parallel Sun (0°58’)
Contra-Parallel Saturn (0°45’)
Parallel Node (0°01’)

:5: ´Intensity and strong will´ and ´somewhat mysterious´ fit somewhat due to his traveling & being away from home alot but the ´bossy and power hungry´ not so much but definitely good qualities of being a leader, team worker, keeping small groups of people happy at what they are doing and decisive especially during critical/ impending dangerous conditions.

Also, since Saturn has ´heavy´ qualities, the interpretation for placement of it appears to cancel the incorrect interpretation parts for Pluto in his chart and confirms the nature of his work:

Saturn in the 6th House

Saturn in the sixth house refers to employment and health. It indicates reliable and hardworking people, even if their work is boring. They have an ability to concentrate on details; they are able to do such work for long periods of time. They take their responsibilities very seriously and they often carry a heavy burden. They must avoid overworking and unnecessary worries. This position may mean slow progress in their career and a tendency to hypochondria.

Saturn aspects

Square Moon (6°41’, Applying)
Trine Uranus (6°21’, Applying)
Square MC (0°17’, Separating)
Opposition Node (6°04’, Applying)
Contra-Parallel Pluto (0°45’)
Contra-Parallel Node (0°44’)

If you run a chart with the info. given, make a list of professional career types that his chart would indicate highest suitability & I´ll let you know the types of work he did! :5:


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