Dwads, Dvadashamsha/Dodecatemoria chart (D12) - Discussions, questions

Astro-Seek.com System message: Post has been written by user Seanfhear, who already deleted profile on this website:
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I´m not deep into this matter but I´ve realized some things here that might be useful for you.

First of all be careful of the terminology. Dodecatemoria is also called Dwadashamsha, but also Dwadashamsha (or Dvadashamsha) is another division. Both of them are labeled D12, but they are not similar.

Dodecatemoria is made by dividing each sign into 12 parts (like mini-zodiac) and the parts start with the sign itself (e.g. dividing Scorpio into 12 parts, the first part will be Sco. then followed by Sag. and so on ending with Lib.).

Dvadeshamsha or the Vedic version (or the Harmonic D12) is made by dividing each sign into 12 parts as well but certain rules are made for the beginning of these parts depending on the sign, just as is the case with other divisional charts such as D9, D10, etc. Unfortunately, I can´t remember the rules quite well but it has to do I think with the sign you are dividing and its nature (cardinal, stable, dual) or maybe its element (fire, earth, etc). I´m sure the net is full of explanations for this one.

As for their meaning, Dodecatemoria as I´ve read in several pages online, it is more concerned about your other "half" or your inner workings if I can call it so.
As for the Vedic one or Dvadashamsha, it is mainly concerned about family or ancestors and "karma" delivered thru them (I guess?).

Unfortunately, I didn´t play much with these 2 - though Dodecatemoria can be quite interesting for me I guess. Notice that this concept was even recorded from Babylonian times.

Ways_of_Leavin' » Seanfhear Oh, okay? I have actually no clue about the two - I was just interested in finding out the dwads for all my planets/angles, and saw that the chart named Dvadashamsha / Dodecatemoria on Astrodienst gives you all the dwads in one chart, so very convenient.

Someone just told me that, that the Dodecatemoria chart can tell you about "stuff" inherited from family. Since I´m not knowledgeable about Vedic astrology I won´t really try to interpret it... Though how do you feel about your own Dodecatemoria chart - anything you notice right off the bat ?

Astro-Seek.com » Ways_of_Leavin' System message: Post has been written by user Seanfhear, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Honestly, I didn´t really study it much and compare.
Astro-Seek has both tools ... Dodecatemoria and the "Vedic" D12. The Vedic one you can find in the section of Harmonics 1-360. You can do it still for Tropical.

Do the two for your own chart for example and compare. You will notice big difference in the locations of planets.

Ways_of_Leavin' » Seanfhear Very nice! On here I even get houses (vs. the Dodecatemoria one at Astrodienst).

I understood, understand... Well, I wondered not so much about the Dodecatemoria chart as a separate entity... I more had in mind, if, perhaps, you identified with the dwad signs it gives you, such as your Sun, Moon, or ASC dwad ? (apart from that I have not much clue at all on how to interpret such a chart)

As mentioned, my Dodecatemoria places my Sun/Moon/ASC in Cancer/Taurus/Cancer, respectively. I see those signs as being in stark contrast to Air signs and also Pisces. I do feel that my tropical natal chart, radix placements, do fit me very well. But also I see myself as more security-seeking? I love cooking very much, something that is rarely associated with Aquarius... Granted, I have my 5th house cusp in the sign of Cancer - so, it should not be of surprise that my hobbies could include that, as well as spending time with children or being near the sea, or water in general. And as well, H2 is in Taurus - maybe such comforts is something that I would tend to in order to ground myself. But yes, I do see myself as someone more security oriented, as well as more stable and nurturing than what I attribute to my radix placements.

I then read online someone saying he or she had observed that all the women he/she knew that were very into cooking had their Sun in the Cancer dwad..!

Astro-Seek.com » Ways_of_Leavin' System message: Post has been written by user Seanfhear, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Yeah, as I´ve noted, I really didn´t study the Dodeca much (nor the Vedic D12 for that matter). I use Whole Sign, so yeah your Cancer there is in the 5th house (house of skills/children/romance/luck) and Cancer is the sign of home. You have Ketu there as well so I think that kind of add a "hermitic" sense to the whole thing maybe? I´m not sure.

If there is one thing I want to study that would be the D9 chart (Navamsha). Typically astrologers that practice vedic principles would study D9 side by side to the natal chart, as it is said to show the core power of the planet (a planet can be debilitated in the natal but has a strong position in D9, so this is called "Cancellation of Debilitation").

By the way, in the whole sign system, your Taurus is in 3rd house, house of communication (and other things) and its lord venus is in your first house in pisces (exalted). I think that adds a character when you speak to people (like, mesmerizing them) - Have you noticed any of that when you talk to people?

Ways_of_Leavin' » Seanfhear "I use Whole Sign, so yeah your Cancer there is in the 5th house (house of skills/children/romance/luck) and Cancer is the sign of home. You have Ketu there as well so I think that kind of add a "hermitic" sense to the whole thing maybe? I´m not sure"

You´re right... The SN is in Cancer, so probably when I should act in a more Capricorn way - being responsible, level-headed, hard-working - I instead retreat into a safe cocoon maybe. Instead of using logic things get clouded by emotion; and instead of going forward I´m idealizing everything about the past which keeps me stuck there. Chiron is also in Cancer and even opposite Saturn. Guess when I´m faced with hardships the Chiron side comes out even more.

STILL... I am wondering if one´s dwad sign tells about one´s personality.

"If there is one thing I want to study that would be the D9 chart (Navamsha)."

I have heard about it but am not familiar with how to interpret it...

"By the way, in the whole sign system, your Taurus is in 3rd house, house of communication (and other things) and its lord venus is in your first house in pisces (exalted). I think that adds a character when you speak to people (like, mesmerizing them) - Have you noticed any of that when you talk to people?"

Well... I more identify with 3rd house cusp in Gemini, I think..? I feel like my thought processes are too scattered to be Taurean. I´m a wordsmith, curious about a lot, have a bit of ADHD almost I feel. Also there is some slowness... I attribute it to its ruler, Mercury, being conjunct Saturn in Capricorn? Who knows about these house systems really. I identify more with the sign descriptions of each house cusp that Placidus gives me personally, also the planets (potentially the house placement of the planets better describe, um, the more tangible or concrete aspects of me and my life).

Astro-Seek.com » Ways_of_Leavin' System message: Post has been written by user Seanfhear, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Well, Placidus confuses me as, well, it feels not so organized and I don´t quite click with it. Anyway I did mistake here because I didn´t check the aspects of the planets in your chart.

But anyway, back to the Dwad, or the Dodecatemoria; Did you happen to study some charts already? Any ideas?

Astro-Seek.com System message: Post has been written by user Ksuwaves, who already deleted profile on this website:
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I’ve been fascinated with dwads at some point. I’ve even got a book. I am an Aries stellium with the dwads of Sun, Venus, Mars and Mercury fall into Scorpio. My Cancer AC in a dwad of Libra and Moon in Gemini in a dwad of Capricorn.
Here is the description for Aquarius in a Duad of Cancer from the book “Decanates and Duads” by Sakoian & Acker”:
“Uranus-Saturn-Moon duad. These with this duad prominent often include their friends as family members. Much group intellectual or scientific activity goes on in the home. Natives interested in modern improvements for the home and new approaches to family life. They are less aloof and detached than other Aquarius because Cancer is an emotional water sign, which gives them emotional empathy and sympathy. Because Aquarius is a fixed sign, and Cancer is cardinal, these natives have the capacity to use determination, adaptability, and decisive action in a well integrated synthesis.”

Astro-Seek.com » Ksuwaves System message: Post has been written by user Seanfhear, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Actually that reminds me of a point. I don´t see many people talk about Decans (dividing each sign into 3 equal parts of 10 degrees each). This is equal to D3 (but in Vedic D3 must be done with specific rules regarding the type of the sign i think and/or its element.

Now, how does all this work? In Dodecatemoria I mean. For example, my sun is in Leo in H2, and in Dodeca it´s in Taurus in H10. What to conclude here? and how?

And by the way what about the bounds? Because there are 3 types of bounds as I see (Egyptian, Chaldean, Ptolemy) - I think the positions of the planets would change according to the change of bounds?

Ways_of_Leavin' » Ksuwaves That is a lot of Scorpio. You do in fact seem a bit "heavier" than what I would expect from someone with Sun Aries/Moon in Gemini. Well, you have a water Asc, with the ruler in H12, and then your Sun/Venus/Mars conjunction opposite Pluto, Saturn square Asc... So who knows... But for me the dwad sign really do seem to point to something deeper within the person.

Thank you for sharing the interpretation I guess it resonated. I do not see and never have seen myself as so aloof and detached. In fact I have always felt very different from Aquarius in this regard. I have always wished to have my own family and enjoyed very much being part of one.

Maybe I´m gonna get the book... I saw also one other book about dwads being recommended "The 144 Doors of the Zodiac: The Dwad Technique". Gonna look on ebay and see if I find something cheapo

Ways_of_Leavin' » Seanfhear Sorry; I see now that I must not have made much sense earlier - or not conveyed my true thoughts. I meant instead to write: "I identify more with the sign descriptions of each house cusp that Placidus gives me personally, also the planets (potentially *the house placement of the planets as described by the WHOLE SIGN SYSTEM* better describe, um, the more tangible or concrete aspects of me and my life)."

Whole or equal sign system do look more pleasing to the eye. Especially when you go very high up North like the most northern parts of Norway, or Finland! Then you do start to wonder a bit! I just resonate more with Placidus personally... I guess I am someone who goes very much by the "feels" of things... In this regard it is quite accurate when it pertains to the inner workings of a person, and also in synastry.

I suppose you use the whole sign system also when doing synastry, right ? Does it seem fitting to you ? (I am not trying to be sarcastic; I am just very curious..! I haven´t looked at other house systems much other Placidus in regards to synastry...)

"But anyway, back to the Dwad, or the Dodecatemoria; Did you happen to study some charts already? Any ideas?"

I did look some up, yes... But... From what I read (and I read a bit more now about the dwad chart) qualities may be more on an inner level, or what one really feels like inside. So... it may be something that is a bit harder to gauge or grasp. That is also why I want to hear from others here; how they themselves feel - about themselves and their own Dodecatemoria chart.

Ways_of_Leavin' » Seanfhear I know it was not a reply to me but - I use decans (yay!). I go by the trigon system though, where there are three decans, which can only be of the same element. My Sun is in the Gemini decan, Asc is in Pisces-Cancer. I wish Elbert Wade hadn´t deleted his webpage! But I suppose there are other astrologers who use decans as well.

(To the rest of what you wrote I cannot comment... sorry...)

Astro-Seek.com » Ways_of_Leavin' System message: Post has been written by user Seanfhear, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Well, when I first learned about astrology long time ago all I was exposed to was Placidus, but then I realized that there is an original system, which is the whole sign and most astrologers I follow do use that because it makes more sense to them (and now me) and also because of some techniques that would essentially require such a system.
It´s more than just being pleasing to the eye actually, but like, in Placidus you can have houses stretching 2 signs, and it can get cumbersome to judge which is the lord of the house. Yes, we can take the 0 degree of the house or where it begins as being the sign of the lord but then what about the other sign where it stretches, and that essentially might leave some houses with no lord. But anyway, as I said to someone here before, it seems the whole thing after all kind of like a "6th sense" thing where the reader/astrologer feels things thru the houses. I don´t know.

As for the synastry, I really didn´t try studying those (actually none of my interest). Funny though you bring it up because just last night I was thinking about it myself saying: Why do people here care so much about synastries? I mean, if you have the chart of someone and let´s suppose they are good in reading charts, why don´t they just read the chart of that person right away to see qualities they lack or they looking for? I think it is less complicated that way. Synastry charts kind of confuse me because of the many aspects and many planets and such. But anyway, generally speaking, synastry is not my thing really.

As for the Dodeca, yes this is what I´ve read already actually; It´s a chart about the inner working of a person. This leads me to the next question (in my head): How useful is this then? Can we really use it? On the Vedic sign, the Dwadashamsha or D12 is about ancestors, and yet again, not sure how would they use it (I mean, what for would they use it?).

Astro-Seek.com » Ways_of_Leavin' System message: Post has been written by user Seanfhear, who already deleted profile on this website:
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are there more than one system for Decans? I didn´t know!
I thought the only system there is what you´ve described as being triplets of the same element in each sign.

And how would that lead to add more information? Let´s say like in my case, I have moon in Scorpio in the first Decan (Scorpio decan I think?) so that´s like double Scorpio?
I know from what I read and heard from other astrologers is that Moon is debilitated in Scorpio and specifically in the first 5 degrees of Scorpio (which is my case), so I´m kind of linking that now to the story of the Decans, I´m not sure. I need to get my head around this system or technique to realize what kind of information I can yield from such combination when reading a chart.

Ways_of_Leavin' » Seanfhear Yes. Other than the traditional decans (trigon or triplicity system) there exist also the Decans of Manilius and Chaldean decans. Then there are also the terms - 5 divisions instead of 3.

Astrodienst gives a short sum up here: https://www.astro.com/faq/…

I can only comment on the traditional decans as they are really the only ones that I have explored at this point in time.

I have not heard of Moon being most debilitated in the first 5 degrees of Scorpio... (Am by no means saying you are wrong). I have read that 3 degrees Scorpio is where Moon is at maximum fall, is this what you are referring to, or not ?

Indeed your Moon is in the Scorpio-Scorpio decan. But in e.g. the Chaldean decans your Moon occupies the Sun decan. Also, Moon being at max exaltation at 3 degrees Taurus and max fall at 3 degrees Scorpio, I personally take that as we are only talking about this one degree (and not nearby ones)..? Another way of looking at it... 15 degrees of the fixed signs is the most fixed degree (my Sun rounds up to 15 deg. Aquarius for example) - energies here may be so fixed they become stuck. I mean yes, your Moon is in fall, but it is not at 3 or 15 degrees Scorpio... and you also have a nice Venus-ASC trine to your Moon, which should function as ´a way out´. (I suppose it is similar to my Sun which is in detriment in Aquarius and not strongly placed in H12... powerful square to Pluto, placed at the most fixed degree, but I guess luckily, I have a supportive trine from my Moon to it. I take it as, that, if I act more on my Moon, or incorporate more Moon qualities when acting ´Sun´, it could relieve some of the tension from the Sun.)

Ways_of_Leavin' » Seanfhear "Funny though you bring it up because just last night I was thinking about it myself saying: Why do people here care so much about synastries? I mean, if you have the chart of someone and let´s suppose they are good in reading charts, why don´t they just read the chart of that person right away to see qualities they lack or they looking for?"

Heh... I actually asked myself very recently, Why the heck am I looking so much at relationship charts, what are they giving me? Well... I am not looking at them for making decisions. I´m just trying to get some clue what energies are at work, why did I attract this person into my life (and this again will tell me what I need to work on); try to get a more objective view of how the people are acting. But you are right in that it is really complex - so one should of course be careful also.

"As for the Dodeca, yes this is what I´ve read already actually; It´s a chart about the inner working of a person. This leads me to the next question (in my head): How useful is this then? Can we really use it?"

Well, if it is really about inner workings, shouldn´t it then be a very significant chart... Maybe harder to ´prove´... but not less valid.

Astro-Seek.com » Ways_of_Leavin' System message: Post has been written by user Seanfhear, who already deleted profile on this website:
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Yeah I can´t remember exactly but I think some astrologers I know said (first 5 degrees of Scorpio) for the fall of the moon. Anyway, there are points, as I´ve experienced, that some astrologers would judge by experience and not by rules of the book (e.g. Mercury combust, some take it as 3 degrees and some as 5 degrees to the sun, more or less).

The talk about dividing the signs into 3 decans and 5 ... this is actually quite similar to the idea of the the divisional chart in vedic astrology - with the exception that the Western decan division is simple compared to the Vedic division (specially that the Vedic divisions involve concepts like the significators or Karakas and other things at play to judge the chart).

Personally, I think I would never consider reading or learning synastry reading. Unless maybe for business? Well, I would be asking other professionals then hehe
I´m almost done with my retirement from work so maybe I will soon have time to tinker with that dodeca thing - I´ve been currently checking some D10 charts to assess career reading and trying to figure out how it works - so maybe (just maybe) Dodeca in a sense shouldn´t be read alone, but as the case with Vedic divisional charts, it should be read side by side with the natal chart. Maybe.

Ways_of_Leavin' » Seanfhear I find synastry (both tropical and Draconic), as well as the composite and the Davison chart sooo intriguing. But each to their own.

Well, let me know in case you should inquire into the Dodecatemoria chart:) It´s always good to discuss and get feedback from others - especially in matters that seem to be more vague or hidden like this one.

Astro-Seek.com » Ways_of_Leavin' System message: Post has been written by user Seanfhear, who already deleted profile on this website:
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I sure will, hopefully. Just so much on my plate right now *sigh*

Hebatallah » Ways_of_Leavin' pls, I feel lost I don´t understand the difference between
1 . Dwads
2 . Duads
3 . Dodecatemoria
4 . harmonic 12th
If it is possible to clarify the difference in terms of calculations and the intended meaning of each of them

Ways_of_Leavin' » Hebatallah Basically;
Dwads = Dodecatemoria chart
Duads = 12th harmonic chart

Both chart are 12th-divisional charts, where each of the 12 signs are split into 12, giving 2.5 degrees. Although I´ve noticed that the terms duads and dwads often are used synonymously this is not actually the case.

To find a dwad you start the first 2.5 degrees of a Zodiac sign with that exact sign. So for example 0-2.5° (or 2° 29´ 59" to be exact) Scorpio will read as the Scorpio dwad of Scorpio; 2.5-5° Scorpio-Sagittarius; 5-7.5° Scorpio-Capricorn; and so forth.

Whereas, if you want to instead draw up a 12th harmonic chart *every* first duad of *every* Zodiac sign starts with the sign of Aries. So using the same example: 0-2.5° Scorpio *and actually every other Zodiac sign* corresponds to the Aries duad; 2.5-5° is the Taurus duads; etc, etc.

Correct me if I should be wrong people.