"An eye for an eye""...

September 6, 2021 at 03:52 (UT/GMT)
(Pisces) fishscales
"An eye for an eye""...
I have heard that some who regard the Bible as a book written by superstitious goat herders interpret the passage "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" as some kind of "evidence" of a vengeful, vindictive God. (Many such people deny the existence of any kind of "God" in the first place, which makes their position curious to me.)

Perhaps the passage is meant to try and indicate that what one reaps, they also sow.

Nothing to do with a vindictive, vengeful God, just a "heads-up" that you create your own destiny.

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September 6, 2021 at 04:12
(Leo) Sunnyshadow
We are free to choose, but we aren´t free from the consequences of our choices
September 6, 2021 at 04:25
(Pisces) fishscales » Sunnyshadow
Precisely.

It really is that simple.

Life is alot less complicated that the "great" intellectual theorists would have you think.

I´ll take being schooled by an "ignorant" goat herder over a magna cum laude professorial type any day, apparently.
September 6, 2021 at 11:50
(Leo) cubic » fishscales
Yup. The amount of $10 word webs of bullshit intellectuals build is proportionate to the disconnect from nature they have.

If they stumble upon simple truths that beat all their furious intellectualizing they can´t accept that it´s that brilliantly simple.

It is crazy that there are whole books or even careers built on one´s distortion of sexual, self-preservational or social base instinct or some other quirk or lack that renders the person unwhole.

Thus why intellectual is in my book synonym with "lost"

"Perhaps the passage is meant to try and indicate that what one reaps, they also sow."

Most likely. Perhaps more in terms of person to person (relational) karma as that one is IMO more observable/measurable (still super difficult).
September 6, 2021 at 12:21
(Pisces) fishscales » cubic
Overthought and overwrought.

That´s the world we live in today, I guess.

"Perhaps more in terms of person to person (relational) karma as that one is IMO more observable/measurable (still super difficult)."

I think it can be applied to personal relationships, but also more generally, as in whatever you put into (or take out of) the universe comes back to you. Just a simple illustration of how the "system" works.

While we´re on the subject, it´s interesting to me how many traditional Christians discount karma as some kind of "Eastern superstition", when the Bible makes quite a few references to it, albeit not under the term "karma."

The commonality between religions has fascinated me for the past several years.

I think the divisions between them are purely man made.
September 6, 2021 at 16:43
(Gemini) AmberMoon
Well, as mankind evolves it is natural, I guess, to read with different eyes over the course of centuries, and soften interpretations along the way 🙂

But there is also the rest of history to confirm that at the time, an eye for eye was really a tooth for a tooth.

That´s just how things worked before.

Religious scriptures appealed to the people of that time, that tribe etc. Moses did not preach to the Arabian peninsula and Jesus did not free the Egyptian slaves.

And to be receptive as a message, scriptures would have to start from something people were already familiar with.
And from there, amend where needed.
September 6, 2021 at 17:53
(Virgo) RohiniMoon » Sunnyshadow
"but we aren´t free from the consequences of our choices"

Absolutely, sunnyboy. Absolutely.

People nowadays seem to be under some great delusion that they can evade the natural law. Evade karma. And suffer no ramifications from the choices they make.

It´s one of the greatest deceptions of our time they have gotten a good chunk of people to buy into.

Reminds me of this bible verse, when Jesus said: "But whosoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven"

Denial and deception. Two things running rampant these days.
September 6, 2021 at 19:52
(Pisces) fishscales » AmberMoon
I don´t believe religious scripture (of any religion) is meant to be "interpreted" per se...only comprehended correctly.

A very poor job of this has been done throughout history, as well as in the present...particularly within western religions for whatever reason.

Probably because more emphasis and importance is placed on "individual opinion" in the west.
September 6, 2021 at 20:33
(Aquarius) nikkia
I´ve always understood the ´eye for an eye´ passage as: Never let the punishment be worse than the crime. This falls into the category of justice and law and is anti-vengeance by its very nature.

I´ve often thought that by projecting vindictiveness onto God is just man´s own refection staring back at him.

I do recall a bible passage, ´Vengeance is mine sayth the Lord´ which I interpreted as that no human should take revenge. I cannot help but wonder if we refrained from exacting vengeance how different this world might be. Of course, this passage also implies a vengeful God... so, here we are.
September 6, 2021 at 20:59
(Pisces) fishscales » nikkia
"I´ve often thought that by projecting vindictiveness onto God is just man´s own refection staring back at him."

:44:

"I do recall a bible passage, ´Vengeance is mine sayth the Lord´ which I interpreted as that I am not to take revenge. That no one should. I cannot help but wonder if we refrained from exacting vengeance what a different world this might be. Of course, this passage also implies a vengeful God... so, here we are."

Yes, I immediately thought of that passage while making this thread.

I agree it is about not exercising vengeance against others ourselves.

As for God "saying" ´vengeance is mine´...I take it to mean that vengeance is simply the business of God, or the universe, not of people.

I don´t see God or the universe as licking their chops, eagerly anticipating laying down a revenge smack down on someone, the way a person might...it is simply a part of the natural process..the natural result of the actions taken by the individual who is being punished.

It is not a vengeance that is personal, or passionate, if you will.

I once read somewhere that "even God respects the law of karma."

This also points to what I´m saying to some degree.
September 6, 2021 at 21:32
(Aquarius) nikkia » fishscales
So what are you trying to say?
September 6, 2021 at 22:40
(Pisces) fishscales » nikkia
What I said above.^^

There is no "desire" for vengeance on the the part of God or the universe...the "vengeance" is simply a natural outcome of the particular karma accrued by the human individual in question.

It is God´s business to deal with that, not ours.

Just because a certain issue is declared as being "yours" doesn´t mean you relish dealing with that issue.

Hard to speak without sounding like I´m portraying God as an anthropomorphic being...a concept which I personally believe to be absurd.
September 7, 2021 at 01:06
(Virgo) LotusStar
Interesting post. I dont think God is vengeful, but he is just, and he is also merciful (according to the Bible).

If he already said the natural law he created is ´as you sow, so shall you reap´ then I see it as fair game to deal the consequences.

And I also believe that vengeance belongs to God. Even Jesus said, turn the other cheek. To me that meant to not enact revenge, and also shows he is merciful.

I´m not saying no self-defense or take the abuse.. but karma does its work, vengence affects your own karma.
September 7, 2021 at 08:47
(Gemini) AmberMoon » fishscales
There is no such thing as "correct" comprehension unless the author him-/herself is there to confirm.
This becomes increasingly difficult as writings and original ideas age.

All else is dogma or an attempt to interpret.

So, do you think the habit of forming an "individual opinion" should make way for a hierarchical dictate on group level?
September 7, 2021 at 09:18
(Aquarius) Leo Moon
The “ eye for an eye” phrase’s oldest attribution is from Hammurabi’s code.

This was a set of laws to maintain order in ancient Babylon.

It’s considered one of the first justice systems.
It specifically states at the beginning that one of its goals is to protect the weak from the tyranny of the powerful.

The eye for an eye phrase is repeated many times in the Bible. Especially the Old Testament.

Which makes sense since it is basically derived from the Jewish Talmud. The Talmud is focused on a code to live by.
One function of Rabbis was as a judge through interpretation of Jewish law.( still is in some Orthodox communities.)

“You reap what You sow” is another Biblical phrase that brings Karma to mind.

Or was it Lou Reed ? :4: “ You’re going to reap, just what You sow”. From his song “ Perfect Day”
September 7, 2021 at 19:10
(Cancer) Victor_Valiant_
Yes ;D
It´s the Universal Rule / Golden Rule of Humanity

It exists in 3 forms, and is present / adopted in all spiritual beliefs & religions in some form.

1 > Treat others as you would like others to treat you (positive or directive form)
2 > Do not treat others in ways that you would not like to be treated (negative or prohibitive form)
3 > What you wish upon others, you wish upon yourself (empathetic or responsive form)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
September 8, 2021 at 13:26
(Pisces) fishscales » AmberMoon
"There is no such thing as "correct" comprehension unless the author him-/herself is there to confirm.
This becomes increasingly difficult as writings and original ideas age.

All else is dogma or an attempt to interpret."

I disagree with this.

The word "religion" comes from the Latin "religare", which means to bind; in this case, to bind oneself to God.

I have read (and agree with) the notion that this binding is an energetic, alchemical, scientific process; a process based on undertaking a very specific course of action(s). A process with rules.

This process is allegorically and symbolically illustrated in the scripture of all the great religions of the world. (Which are all essentially variations of the same concept.)

It is important to remember that "action" is the keyword here. Religion is about creating a fundamental *energetic* change within the human being, and illustrating specific methods by which this can be accomplished: these methods are a constant, and are not subject to change according to anyone´s beliefs, opinions, or interpretations.

The chemical components of water are not going to change based on anyone´s beliefs, theories, or desires to debate about it.

Unification with God works the same way; it is a chemical reaction on a metaphysical level that is brought about only under a set of very specific conditions.

Reality remains what it is, beliefs and opinions remain what they are. They are essentially irrelevant to eachother.

The code has been given to us by the world´s great religions. It is up to us to decipher it, and act on it. And like any code, it must be deciphered correctly, or it just ends up being a bunch of meaningless, useless gibberish...which is unfortunately the state of much of modern religion today.

"So, do you think the habit of forming an "individual opinion" should make way for a hierarchical dictate on group level?"

No individual or group should try to control what anyone thinks.

September 8, 2021 at 16:33
(Aquarius) nikkia » fishscales
*No individual or group should try to control what anyone thinks*

Amen to that, my brother! And yet that is exactly what belief based on scripture and religion does.

(Public Service Announcement: Wikipedia is asking for money. Be :5: and send 3 bucks, if doable)
September 9, 2021 at 01:59
(Pisces) fishscales » nikkia
"Amen to that, my brother! And yet that is exactly what belief based on scripture and religion does."

Not what those things were intended for, but I guess that´s the nature of the human ego to cause things like that to happen.

If any given religious clergy or clergyman thinks that a belief will save someone, I don´t think they understand the nature or purpose of their own religion, or any religion.

A belief is essentially an opinion, and you know what they say about those.

Suffice it to say, a belief is not going to save anyone.

I do think there is a "science of salvation" ; but it is based on practical action, not beliefs or theories.

Other people´s "buy in" is also not required, or relevant.
September 9, 2021 at 02:40
(Aquarius) nikkia » fishscales
Yes, the human ego causes things like this to happen. Here we are in a world plagued by religious wars.

It´s hard for me accept that the authors, preachers and organized religion didn´t know exactly the affect and effect their messages would have upon the flock (in keeping with goat herders image)

Agreed! Belief ´saves´ no one. Belief all too often causes destruction and death and misery on a mass scale. Destroys many. Saves no one.

A science to salvation? How intriguing!
Is this different than 108 lifetimes and Karma or is it the same idea?
September 9, 2021 at 09:50
(Leo) cubic » nikkia
We associate the Saggitarius sign/9th house with Beliefs.

On high level Saggitarius is about experience. Something like pure perception, perhaps going beyond what is known.

One then draws conclusions from said experience. They can be moral, philosophical, scientific, legalistic.

Then that gets codified in a legalistic or religious system of knowledge based on said experiences. We now have a whole framework that potentially gets (wide)spread in society and is the new perception, and later on new design of structures/institutions(10th). On its lowest level we have dogma associated with Saggitarius.

The problem with all that that, yes God is one for all, and is the same for all, but we experience it differently.

A Nordic person will have a very different life experience than an Arabic one. Genetics.

Which brings us back to the previous sign - Scorpio/8th house. Arguably(?) associated with one´s genetic makeup/mixing.

So then if the apparatus(8th) to experience-perceive(9th) is bound to be different, we are bound to experience reality/God in different ways.

The codified, widespread Saggitarian frameworks are bound to lead to clashes. We can be upfront and aggressive about what we have strongly perceived.

We perceive the design of the world in different ways and we design our societies in different ways that fit us.

Everything in this realm seems to anyway end up being utilized by the central forces of power and money. At first looks sacrilegious, but who is to say that this process doesn´t serve even bigger purposes than what we see?

Perhaps power is more ultimately important than belief and even spirituality, if by design it´s allowed to corrupt everything? We all spin around the Sun. We all need certain powerful types of people to hold together a group, have a group / society spinning around them. The participants do it by their own choice / attraction to centers of power.

Through the (mis)utilization for power purposes/games over time things get corrupted, and perhaps something new is / will be generated. And if we are truly evolving (8th) then that should be ok, because we do not perceive the world in the same way anymore as when the beliefs were initially generated, because the very perceptional apparatus has (de)evolved.
September 11, 2021 at 10:48
(Pisces) fishscales » nikkia
"It´s hard for me accept that the authors, preachers and organized religion didn´t know exactly the affect and effect their messages would have upon the flock (in keeping with goat herders image)"

As for the original authors of various religious scripture...I definitely don´t think their intentions were to bring about the kind of "religion" that predominates today.

Throughout history however, there have been "editors" of religious scripture. Their motives vary, mostly leaning towards the negative.

Preachers...these days, mostly mouthpieces for dogma.

I think in earlier times, preachers were more like "teachers".

At any rate, by and large, what we call "religion" today is not what it is supposed to be. It in no way was meant gain power over any individual or group in its original, pure form...the human ego (the only Satan that exists, while we´re on the topic of religion) had other plans though...
September 11, 2021 at 12:44
(Aquarius) nikkia » cubic
Good post, Cubic.

Yes, perceptional apparatus is changing.
Not fast enough for the likes me! :2:

It seems that the 10th house (powers that be) are not letting go of power, greed and dogma which has proved destructive throughout.

If we are truly evolving, we will realize the 11th house.
September 11, 2021 at 13:30
(Aquarius) nikkia » fishscales
In earlier times these ´teachers´ gave us dogma.

Religion is sheer nonsense to me (sincerely, no offense meant to anyone!)

**..what we call "religion" today is not what it is supposed to be.**

What´s it supposed be, then?

And, does it apply anymore, since we are literally thousands of years beyond its inception?
September 11, 2021 at 17:51
(Pisces) fishscales » nikkia
"In earlier times these ´teachers´ gave us dogma."

Everything, even good things, devolve into dogma. Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Mohammed, Lao Tzu...these were not dogmatists, politicians, or power-seekers, however. Good "preachers", for lack of a better word, have existed, and will continue to exist...although today, the best ones would probably be crucified for what they say...with the religious establishment probably first in line to do so. (History repeats itself.)

"Religion is sheer nonsense to me (sincerely, no offense meant to anyone!)"

That´s because when you think of "religion", you mainly think of it´s degenerated modern public face...killing in the name of God, exercising power and control, asking for money, ego battles over whose God is "better", the absurd notion that holding a certain belief can "save" you.

This is not religion. But like I said before, people can pervert anything.

"What´s it supposed be, then?"

Very roughly, and very briefly, (and however inarticulately), what I wrote in my post to AmberMoon. (these are borrowed ideas, not my own.)

"And, does it apply anymore, since we are literally thousands of years beyond its inception?"

Absolutely.

Religion has no "inception" date. The science of merging with God is timeless, older than mankind itself.

September 11, 2021 at 20:07
(Aquarius) nikkia » fishscales
**Religion has no "inception" date. The science of merging with God is timeless, and as old as mankind itself.**

What´s the science of separation from God? Birth?

Religion has no inception date? Every major religion would tend to disagree.

Religion and Science? Maybe we will figure out why people ´believe´...but that´s science figuring out ´religion/ belief´ not the other way around... unless you know something I don´t, which is entirely possible, do tell.

Nope. That´ not why I think religion is nonsense. Those are just objective observations how it has manifested worldwide since the dawn of MANkind.

A story. That´s for sure! Early Man created gods in the attempt to explain what he could not. Thunder and lightening - Zeus must be pissed. Drought - Poseidon is pissed. Floods - Poseidon is pissed again! Geez, he´s a moody one. Earthquake or a Volcano erupts.. oh shit! Hades isn´t happy! We´re all going to hell!

Natural disasters = God is pissed.

We´re being punished!! Let´s build temples, worship, kill animals and sacrifice virgins to make the gods like us again. These ´gods behaved´ just as poorly as man, yet, somehow they were worthy ´our´ worship to avoid their wrath? Jupiter´s cock! That´s some great gaslit story telling right there!

Then there was ONE. One God.
Then there was another ONE God.
And, another ONE God.

My god is better than your god. <I treat myself to an eye roll here>


You wrote something to the effect that ´even God acknowledges Karma´...

I couldn´t help but see God´s God.
And God´s God God.
Then God´s God God God in my minds eye... to infinity and beyond!

If that´s anywhere near what God is, far be it for the tiny human to comprehend. God may not even comprehend itself.

So, anyone who says they think they know the nature of god is suspect. That´s why I don´t believe any of the crap we´ve been sold. Then and now.

The sooner Mankind takes responsibility of his own ego-bound vile nature, no punishment or salvation will be needed.

And the rest of us might live in peace. With enough resources to be kind, creative, and joyful the world over.

Maybe, finally, we can let these stories be what they are. Old Myths.
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