Pluto´s disregard for structure - Discussions, questions

alphagemini » AlsaceTX Wow, very graphic, too early at 5am for full appreciation!

Sunnyshadow » nutelina I think that´s a very good way of describing it. Makes alot of sense.

nutelina » Sunnyshadow He was in a way feeling as your shadow Like a copy perhaps but receiving light instead of being it. Maybe Pluto is Pluto because it has no internal light, it is more of a receiver and lens. Like the backgroud for a projector, or a pond of water. But it can ripple and modify the image. It is looking at the Sun from the farthest distance, because everything else is dark it can only look at the Sun to see anything if the angle is conjuction. It´s like looking at someone in the distance, forgetting yourself and who you are and melting with the image. Travelling by intense observing.

This is just some fantasy of course but I tried to fit in some parts from real life. Maybe something resonates and brings us closer to the actual behaviour. It seems so much of Pluto influence seems perhaps hidden? Not sure form where it originates, a true shadow which you can see only when there is enough light.

When you have Moon conjunct Pluto, there is written here that the Moon might get unsure how far Pluto wants to take things. And how deep. Maybe Pluto is like a mirror a pond, only ripples will distort the image of the light the Moons reflects and the Sun shines. When it is abrupt, there is shock, something moved! I cannot see it directly, the Sun says, but something moved and my image is warped.

Sunnyshadow » nutelina Here´s my take on it..

Pluto perceives the Sun as the light he wants to have in his life,

I would agree with that, I think he lived vicariously through me sometimes


but this also very often means that he tries to change it or remake it into the form that he thinks their hero / heroine should have.

Also true, he didnt always approve of what I did, he was quite a critic at times. We saw things differently. He was a pisces, and I a leo. So 150° aspect there


Psychologically speaking, the hero / heroine should be like that. what Pluto said he was or should have been his father. Depending on that. what his father really is / was, Pluto can also hate or even despise the Sun - especially if the Sun is forced to wave its torch to maintain its own individuality.

I could see that. I was much more outgoing than he was, and had his ideas about that I´m certain. We were different in alot of ways, and would often try to rain on my parade out of spite perhaps. Different outlooks. Although overall he was supportive

However, if these psychological complexes do not emerge or you deal with them appropriately, this interaction can take the form of a mutually reinforcing and threatening relationship. But it must be said that there must first be some form of purification once the defense systems of your ego have been released - because they stand in the way of the deep intimacy that is the real and true purpose of this interaction. Whether this happens or not, each of you must get closer to your true Self, if not to each other. When the time comes, you will realize how deeply affected you were by coming into contact - or even almost coming into contact - with each other.

Pluto sees the Sun as it´s father. A son of Sun, wanting to become a better version of father.

I didnt really get into astrology until much later, so I didnt really know about the synastry. Now that I´m aware of the conjunction, I can see how this was true for us.

I think I was a light for him, and he was a ...pluto, to my light. There were some times when we seemed pitted against each other, like a struggle for power perhaps. He both took pleasure in me and wanted to somehow change me. Sounds like a pluto, eh?

nutelina » Sunnyshadow I can imagine, but tell us, was your father out to polish a gem out of you or how did you perceived it?

Sunnyshadow » nutelina That´s really interesting to me, because my sun is conjunct my father´s pluto. So a sort of role reversal.

We did share quite a relationship. More so in the later years, before he passed away

nutelina I didn´t read everything until the end but skimmed over it, what I found peculiar was Synastry Pluto conj. Sun:

It is a journey to the Underworld - with or without a torch! Pluto pulls the Sun into those levels of experience that the Sun would never decide to enter if it knew in advance what awaited it. Pluto perceives the Sun as the light he wants to have in his life, but this also very often means that he tries to change it or remake it into the form that he thinks their hero / heroine should have. Psychologically speaking, the hero / heroine should be like that. what Pluto said he was or should have been his father. Depending on that. what his father really is / was, Pluto can also hate or even despise the Sun - especially if the Sun is forced to wave its torch to maintain its own individuality. However, if these psychological complexes do not emerge or you deal with them appropriately, this interaction can take the form of a mutually reinforcing and threatening relationship. But it must be said that there must first be some form of purification once the defense systems of your ego have been released - because they stand in the way of the deep intimacy that is the real and true purpose of this interaction. Whether this happens or not, each of you must get closer to your true Self, if not to each other. When the time comes, you will realize how deeply affected you were by coming into contact - or even almost coming into contact - with each other.

Pluto sees the Sun as it´s father. A son of Sun, wanting to become a better version of father.

Sunnyshadow » Sunnyshadow Pluto told me to post this video. He said "let it happen"

https://youtu.be/pFptt7Cargc

Sunnyshadow » fishscales I know what you mean there also. After all, the phoenix rising from the ashes is symbolic of scorpio and pluto. Can´t have ashes without fire. And in some sense it is like a fire.

A "tidal wave fire", the worst kind

I feel it primarily as a pressure or weight, but I do feel it like a fire too. Fire is a great purifier after all. Like burning off the dead limbs and debris in a forest so new growth can emerge

fishscales » Sunnyshadow I guess I´m more talking about the ultimate function of Pluto, rather than the experience...

I experience it more like a pressure than a fire too...

But I think when Pluto reaches its "critical mass"... The state at which its transformative power is unleashed... It becomes kind of like a fire... a purging fire...ot maybe like hellfire, on the negative end of its expression...

JayJayAstrology » Sunnyshadow Yes. I believe you!

Sunnyshadow » JayJayAstrology I dont experience as burning either. Maybe explosive sometimes...

It feels more like a force or pressure is what I also experience. Or even like a tsunami sometimes. An overwhelming force capable of sweeping you away. It´s not always that drastic, but it can be

JayJayAstrology » fishscales My reply was just a personal one - not one about how forums should function.

fishscales » JayJayAstrology "Now you´re getting into metaphysics"

I don´t really see any difference between the physical (or more "tangible") and the "metaphysical"...both are just different levels of the same thing...

I also enjoy meandering thread discussions...it´s one of the things that makes this forum worthwhile to be on, vs other astrology forums...at least in my view.

Plus, no other place for a divergence from structure than a forum topic that´s about the disregard for structure, no?

JayJayAstrology » fishscales Now you´re getting into metaphysics - which I love - but not on this Pluto thread. It´s pretty difficult to discuss all the subtleties of metaphysics and the various "authorities" who define things like "illusion".
Another discussion.

fishscales » fishscales "What we are is fragments of Divinity...of spirit (you can´t have "spirituality" with no spirit...)"

This is not to say that we behave in accordance with our divine nature...

We are very, if not completely, disconnected from that...

The biggest thing we can do to get to "know" ourselves at this point is to realize and comprehend that we are lower than the lowest worm in the dirt...

And work from there...

fishscales » JayJayAstrology "I don´t think any of the planets have a negative intent."

No, but everything in the universe has its polarities...

"we need to see life as this wonderful opportunity to know our spiritual nature and evolve our awareness of who we truly are."

What we are is fragments of Divinity...of spirit (you can´t have "spirituality" with no spirit...)

Everything else we think we are, in my view, is, sadly, illusion...

Although Divinity would never stop us from being a lie, if that is what we choose...

fishscales Getting back to the thread topic...

Pluto, Saturn, and structure...

I have Saturn trine Pluto, and it´s a personalized aspect for me, since my moon also trines both planets...

I´m beginning to think of the aspect as a "controlled demolition"...

Being able to harness the destructive (Pluto) energies of the universe in a constructive (Saturn) way...

JayJayAstrology » fishscales Kind of interesting - "Pluto Burns". I don´t experience it burning, and I´m not entirely sure what you mean by that. It isn´t fiery to me like Mars or Aries - of course it can be in a fire sign and have more burn.

I feel it as a power or force - pressure maybe. If we don´t grow and change and become, life becomes stale - it isn´t a happy place - our materialistic goals feel empty. To me, Pluto brings meaning to life as it pressures us to grow and change. When we do, we are happier. When we don´t, we simply become unhappy. I don´t think it like is punishing or destructive - other than, we really aren´t happy and life doesn´t have any sparkle to it.

Growing and changing requires us to work on ourselves - it´s about inner work - 8th house work - which is why it is considered the modern ruler of Scorpio and 8th house. If we don´t do our inner work, we do not experience the joy of inner change. Life is not static. Life is energy. Life is movement.

For those with Pluto in fixed signs - Pluto is asking you to ripen an inner process. A fixed sign can be in a mutable house - which then is a blend of ripening and changing - being able to transform. Mutable signs change more easily - yes - and cardinal signs are beginning a new process of changing something within. You can work out the combinations of sign-house. If you are a fixed sign in a succeedent house - then you are ripening like a fruit goes from bud to ripened fruit. This is still a process of change and growth. We are all in different processes.

I don´t think any of the planets have a negative intent. Pluto is helping us to evolve. Neptune is helping us connect with Soul-Spirit and Uranus is helping us to make bold, needed changes. We interpret them as being hard or hurtful only because we don´t accept processes of change or we aren´t listening to their positive message. We aren´t aware enough to see the gift in the change.

All negativity in astrology is our own interpretation. I don´t believe in a mean or benevolent "God" or Higher Power. I think human kind is way off course and we need to see life as this wonderful opportunity to know our spiritual nature and evolve our awareness of who we truly are.

JayJayAstrology » Sunnyshadow I think it´s very difficult to say that Pluto is the cause for people to leave worldly cares behind or would evolve more if they did - in general. Pluto is out there urging us to evolve all the time . . . and we are all different - working on different aspects of ourselves to evolve. For some, to evolve, they may need more time for inner work, and for others, they need to be more productive in the world. It´s a case by case thing - as it usually is with astrology.

We all have individual lessons that anything in life can teach us - such as having an unfulfilling job. Most of us want a fulfilling job - but someone might just want to get by with a job that doesn´t take much attention because they are rightly focused on some inner thing - that they can´t make money at - but they need to live.

We just can´t make sweeping statements about how planets affect us - on an individual level.

fishscales This doesn´t really have anything to do with Pluto and structure...

But sometimes I think that Pluto doesn´t always transform something "old" into something "new".

Sometimes things are just destroyed, with no trace left behind...reduced to cosmic dust...

Sunnyshadow » goldenlion32 Thank you Goldenlion for your reply. Something to contemplate. Death and rebirth. It feels like the only constant is change in this world, so why try to be established too deep to one thing..? Maybe the greatest achievement is non-attachment



And anyone else I haven´t acknowledged, I appreciate the responses

Sunnyshadow » JayJayAstrology That makes sense. Do you think the way most people are tied to lots of obligations, makes for better or worse evolutionary progress?

Like for instance, being tied down by debt, house payment, a secure but unfulfilling job, etc. etc.

Alot of those things seem good and favorable to people, but may not be part of our evolutionary journey. In fact, may be hindrances to it

I would imagine the stories of people who "went crazy" and abandoned the comfortable but boring life in search of something more meaningful were under the effect of Pluto. As one example. I guess the exact opposite could be true. Someone who gave up living under a bridge to become a productive member of society??

JayJayAstrology I think Pluto insists on evolution. This doesn´t seem to me to be anti-structural in particular. To evolve means to slowly change - to become what you are already inherently.

I think people have a hard time with the outer planets because they all ask us to change one way or another - and we humans don´t like to change all that much - or - at least, we find it challenging. So, the way we respond to Pluto, Neptune and Uranus - how ready we are to do what they ask - can make a big difference in how we experience their transits.

Even Saturn can evolve - it is like Gorilla Tape - it´s strong - it holds things together very well - but it can tear and wear down - it can be made pliable in time - it can lose its stickiness. Even Saturn can evolve.

Pluto doesn´t disregard structure - but it very much takes glee in eroding things that are no longer useful and in evolving what is authentic and real.

goldenlion32 Pluto is something else. I believe I agree with something I heard from Jeffrey Green Wolfe, that was similar to the lines of Pluto needs to kill everything first. And I can vouch for this in my experience. Saturn seems more like the Jail Warden and kind of annoying because it delays cleaning up the mess of Pluto unless you choose to gain the right tools, methods, techniques, values, morals, and ethics before Saturn Releases you into success.

Although, I can´t say it´s pleasant all the time with either one.

Capricorn Pluto is the death of me in so many ways in destroying the "old world" and obviously, in 2020 my world is nothing like it was once was in 2008 when it began. Perhaps shuffling through a lot of karma and dharma and learning about the shadow and light of Capricorn. Organized Crime Versus the average business, jobs, and co-workers.

In Sagittarius Pluto I worked for many Christian Boss´s, and they were all quite honest and in Capricorn Pluto I´ve learned more about the darker side of Humanity.

Not sure what Aquarius Pluto will do in my experience. I know Scorpio Pluto was even darker with Uranus in Capricorn, Neptune in Capricorn.