Misogyny/Misandry

September 9, 2020 at 14:49 (UT/GMT)
(Pisces) bluerosepetals
Misogyny/Misandry
Men who hate women and women who hate men. What do you think causes this, aside from bad experience with a particular sex/gender and difficult family patterns? Keep in mind that I´m not talking about people who simply hold certain stereotypes about men/women or who hold certain beliefs about men/women because of cultural reasons, I am talking about people who really, really HATE the other gender and/or have a history of abuse towards them (not just towards one person, but generally towards members of a certain sex/gender). So, try to think about people you know who exhibit those traits and post their charts ANONYMOUSLY (please don´t write any data that can be connected to a certain person, you never know who will read that - you can also send me their chart in PMs!) in Whole Signs if possible. I´m looking for some patterns in natal charts that can be found in men/women who hate the opposite sex/gender.

Also, feel free to share your thoughts or theories on the subject. Anything topic-related is welcome here. :1:

EDIT: Yes, if you post a chart just please make sure you write the gender of the person because I will look at those two groups separately.

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September 14, 2020 at 20:13
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » hh
"i think moon with a t-square to both saturn and jupiter may be creating those high highs and low lows."

Yes, it definitely can. Moon-Jupiter hard aspects can make a person experience a whole lot of emotions, but square to Saturn is keeping them boiling inside until they explode. And yes, Saturn can also cause lows in emotions.

I see Chiron inconjunct Saturn as an inability to see that the pain the person feels is connected to their need (or difficulty) to establish order and structure in their life. It´s either that they can´t take responsibility to heal themselves and/or they take on too much responsibility to heal others (bear in mind that people have very different ideas of what healing is). I´d say that in his case he´s been through some things and he can´t admit to himself that he needs help, especially with that Moon-Saturn square.
September 14, 2020 at 17:27
(Aries) hh » bluerosepetals
yep and venus/moon both on ketu creating that vacuum.
hes also got mars sq neptune like ed kemper, hmm. (there may be a tendency for violent (square) sexual (mars) fantasies (nep).
an abundance of pluto energy with it conjunct jupiter. pluto sq nodes i find their timing is usually off because events that seem catastrophic hinder their life path. also a sign they have to learn transformation by force.
chiron inconjunct saturn is interesting to me too, authority figure issues i think, since the inconjunct is a 6/8 or fighting aspect.
i think moon with a t-square to both saturn and jupiter may be creating those high highs and low lows.
September 14, 2020 at 16:50
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » hh
His chart is one big yikes. Venus AND Moon in Capricorn square Saturn and Pluto. Talk about being controlling... this guy has poor self-esteem behind his "alpha-male" mask. He strikes me as a bit of a narcissistic personality.
September 13, 2020 at 21:11
(Aries) hh » bluerosepetals
oh thats interesting, im wondering if that study reflects the same in the u.s. maybe it varies by class and region? idk, ill have to look into it, im curious now.

if you are into studying the psychology of abusive relationships, then check out this video, then compare the couples synastry. its a catastrophic hot mess. ill post the charts later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch/…


koppenhaver:
https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/c…

mack (wikipedia says 5/19 but i think its a typo):
https://birthcharts.astro-seek.com/…
YouTube
YouTube
September 13, 2020 at 20:47
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » hh
Yes, people work with what they have. Men have physical strength, and women have a keen understanding of emotions (generally) which can be used for both good and bad. Also, women are aware that men are often easier to manipulate with sex. There was a study in my country that confirmed that women are actually generally more often abusive in relationships (we actually surpassed men in both verbal, emotional, and physical abuse - it´s considered less of a big deal when a woman slaps a man or pushes him around due to her being physically weaker and the guy is afraid he will get in trouble if he strikes back), but men are more violent and commit graver physical abuse when it does happen. They are of course also more likely to commit sexual violence. Also, the study showed that most abusive relationships are abusive from both ends to a degree. This is what we call today "toxic relationships".
September 13, 2020 at 19:26
(Aries) hh » bluerosepetals
"A woman is more likely to be in a relationship, but then take it out on her partner using verbal abuse (sometimes even physical), or if it´s about sex - she´s more likely to deny her partner sex or engage in cheating just to hurt him."

ooh, thats a very good point. i think it was camille paglia or maybe jordan peterson, that was saying women have evolved to have to rely on their emotional and sexual manipulation of men in terms of revenge or hostility as opposed to men who are generally bigger and stronger in physicality and can simply respond in brutish violence. women have to be much more cunning and careful. and i think that is the energy and dichotomy of lilith. its a necessary tool but can be taken to extremes in the depiction of kali. and i find lilith synonymous with the hindu goddess kali, ofen depicted with a sword and carrying the severed heads of men. but obviously this is symobolic, its sort of a battle of wit and intelligence as the head symbolizes, but the larger picture being meeting hostility with hostility, as necessary. and i mean that in the most non-physical way, a symbolic battle between evil masculine and evil feminine.

i like that you take a balanced and discerned approach. its the more difficult thing to do, its easy and binary to go full blown to one side or the other.
September 13, 2020 at 18:38
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » hh
Yes, I agree that it´s a hard find...

"and im starting to think now about ed kemper. if there would possibly be a female version of him? someone who both hates the opposite sex yet needs them for sexual exploitation and so simply objectifies the sexual act."

While I think that there may be women like that, I think it´s very uncommon. Our society is still filled with unequal treatment of men and women who engage in sex outside of committed relationships. A woman is more likely to be in a relationship, but then take it out on her partner using verbal abuse (sometimes even physical), or if it´s about sex - she´s more likely to deny her partner sex or engage in cheating just to hurt him.

"where i differ from her views is that she based the crux or her philosophy on her personal experience, which i think is dangerously naieve. but where i agree with her, is that there is link between pornography as a gateway to violent sexual acts and violence toward women in general, and i stress that its a gateway for some but not all, it certainly was for ted bundy."

I agree with this part fully. I always saw her as a bit misunderstood, she was hated but she needed help and gentleness badly. It´s reflected in her view of men that is a bit paranoid. I also agree with your views on pornography... I wouldn´t say it causes it, but it can give fuel to a personality that is already questionable.

I think your analysis of her chart is spot on. And yes, the Mars-Saturn square definitely seems like a reflection of Venus-Saturn in men!
September 13, 2020 at 18:03
(Aries) hh » bluerosepetals
her writings reflect a real distrust of men and especially of their sexuality, as if it were something to be regulated or tamed. i think she was careful not go full blown anti-men or proclaim she hates men which i think that is what you are looking for, but its gonna be a hard find and we may need settle for now on someone like her who has a horrific experience with men and therefore at the least, an expected distrust.

and im starting to think now about ed kemper. if there would possibly be a female version of him? someone who both hates the opposite sex yet needs them for sexual exploitation and so simply objectifies the sexual act. i think this would be hard to find in a woman, and according to studies, female porn stars tend to objectify but lack in the ´hating of men´ part. or is it better to find a lesbian with no sexual preference for men and at the same time no respect or even a hatred for men? idk.

anyways, in andreas chart, i was most focused on her lilith, in Scorpio on the south node (lilith empowered by trine from pluto). its an inherent rebellious quality which takes more prominence in her younger years. i think she subconciously saught out a tumultuous relationship (did she think she would get a loving partner from an anarchist, who only believes in chaos and destruction?), kind of like something needed to be finished there, not to sound fatalistic, but whatever, it happened and she learned from it. where i differ from her views is that she based the crux or her philosophy on her personal experience, which i think is dangerously naieve. but where i agree with her, is that there is link between pornography as a gateway to violent sexual acts and violence toward women in general, and i stress that its a gateway for some but not all, it certainly was for ted bundy.

7th lord moon in 9th house, she did in deed marry a foreigner. but moon is with chiron leading to some serious wounding.

2nd lord in 7th: values are coming into the relationship, but the values may be flawed being 7th lord in bad dignity.

and you touched on what i think is the biggest one: mars sq saturn and both in uncomfy dignity. this being the inverse of the men having trouble with women: venus-saturn
and saturn-pluto conjunction in 7th

mars-pluto can be dangerous and her mars is square to pluto by sign but off in orb by 11 deg, still noteworthy.

venus square pluto: with pluto in the 7th and venus in the house of publicity in the 10th, sitting in good dignity, making her a proponent of womens rights/protection. lilith conjunct the mc: another nod to the rebellious feminine in her public life. mars-jup-chiron in the 10th, another great position for spokesperson or even preacher of a worthy cause.

north node in taurus, looking for growth and stability but with uranus on the north node, the life path is really one of seeking change, chaos which leads to genius, progressive theories.

the chart of a true rebel and some serious flaws to both mars and venus, creating distrust of the opposite sex, especially the sexuality of men.
September 13, 2020 at 10:39
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » hh
"After graduation, she moved to Amsterdam to interview Dutch anarchists in the Provo movement which used theatrical street happenings to instigate change.[45] While there, she became involved with one of the anarchists, Cornelius (Iwan) Dirk de Bruin.[46] Soon after they were married, she said, de Bruin began to abuse her severely, punching and kicking her, burning her with cigarettes, beating her on her legs with a wooden beam, and banging her head against the floor until he knocked her unconscious.[47]

After she left de Bruin late in 1971, Dworkin said, her ex-husband attacked, persecuted, and harassed her, beating her and threatening her whenever he found where she was hiding. She found herself desperate for money, often homeless, thousands of miles from her family, later remarking that "I often lived the life of a fugitive, except that it was the more desperate life of a battered woman who had run away for the last time, whatever the outcome."[48] Due to poverty, Dworkin turned to prostitution for a period.[49] Ricki Abrams, a feminist and fellow expatriate, sheltered Dworkin in her home and helped her find places to stay on houseboats, a communal farm, and in deserted buildings.[50] Dworkin tried to work up the money to return to the United States."

I was expecting difficult family patterns but it seems this fueled her more. I can´t blame her. I actually respect this woman, she doesn´t seem hateful. Her chart doesn´t seem that way either. Struggle with men is indicated by Mars in the 10th square Saturn in the 7th, and Saturn is conjunct Pluto. Her relationship history definitely confirms that.
September 12, 2020 at 18:33
(Sagittarius) goldenlion32
I don´t know if you watched this, but I thought you might want to watch it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch/…
YouTube
YouTube
September 12, 2020 at 18:20
(Aries) hh
check out andrea dworkin, interesting life and perspective and i think youll find her chart equally interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

birth time source:
https://www.astrotheme.com/astrolog…

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/c…
September 12, 2020 at 14:19
(Virgo) MarvinReal
Those people of both genders must be very merpy. I don´t have what to add.
September 12, 2020 at 11:12
(Pisces) fishscales » Leo Moon
"This wallowing in negativity and continuous victim hood ,can generate a good income for the savvy exploiters. So it is further amplified."

This sounds suspiciously anti-merp.

You´re a mismerpogist.

:61:
September 12, 2020 at 10:40
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » SilverStar
I sent you a PM. :1:
September 12, 2020 at 10:09
(Leo) SilverStar » bluerosepetals
Thanks, your description makes a lot of sense. I do get alot of grief from males even without doing anything.

I seem to attract the one´s operating from extremes

The classic womanizing asshole-whom I instantly challenge and but heads with-but whom will not leave me alone no matter what I do, or the needy dependent nice guy- who suffocates me with their clingy-ness.

Infact I live with one and people joke of our role reversals- but imply I´m the reason for his failure- That really pisses me off (he´s an ISFJ, so he´s naturally sensitive and withdrawn)

My Father was weak and needed a crutch (drugs) to get through life, He was the more sensitive one, My mother more aggressive. He eventually killed himself when I was little. I didn´t care. He was a non-factor to me. No bond at all.
September 12, 2020 at 07:39
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » SilverStar
First of all, thank you for your honesty. In your chart, I noticed a T-square involving Mars, Moon, and Venus. This kind of T-square in my opinion points to negative feelings about men, but also it points to getting a lot of that FROM men. Your Lilith is conjunct Chiron in the 8th, so this would explain feeling restricted from expressing the elements of feminine independence or sexuality, going against the expectations, especially with opposition to Uranus. It´s also square Jupiter, and this really comes out in your sentence where you criticize the misogynistic culture and religious doctrines. Your Sun is square Saturn... that can indicate a difficult relationship with your father. How was your relationship with him?

I feel like I would miss out on a lot of data if I used charts without TOB. But I will definitely look into Aileen´s chart...
September 12, 2020 at 07:16
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » Leo Moon
Victimhood. I think that you are spot on. I have noticed this in both men and women who feel hatred towards the opposite sex. They feel they have been a victim of the opposite sex in some way, or they feel they are being systematically oppressed.

From what I noticed men tend to be more violent in what they write about women online (yeah I studied both sides), more direct about their hatred, generally seem more depressed and insecure, which is then covered up by anger - boys don´t cry, after all. Women tend to be more dismissing of men, or having false ideas of men being dangerous *generally*, or engage in taunting men online if they express an opinion that is different from theirs. But I haven´t noticed much of violent thoughts about men (although it does exist).

Also, the social component you mentioned is interesting. Male incels keep their members by belittling them and killing any hope they might have of finding love. They will outright insult them. Women who hate men will more often use positive reinforcement, they will praise their members.
September 12, 2020 at 06:44
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » IIyyaarr13
Oh no, I´m not looking for homicidal people necessarily. Behavioral component is not important to me. It´s the emotional which may or may not lead to something so extreme. Psychopaths are also a special basket, I´ve noticed that they often have quite charming charts that don´t suggest much of what they have done or of their emotional troubles. They are simply born.
September 12, 2020 at 06:03
(Leo) SilverStar
For the female side, I think the DOUBLE STANDARDS of our MISOGYNISTIC CULTURE- that have been in existence through the centuries due to RELIGIOUS DOCTRINES, create hatred in certain women (the minority) who refuse to submit to the bullshit conditioning we are taught to conform to starting in adolescence, and get hell for it all our lives when we don´t.

My own chart is a good example to study, I personally don´t care too much for males, but really no surprise there lol..My chart depicts many masculine traits that are unacceptable to this culture
and the more someone tries to stifle me, the more hardened and rebellious and competitive I become.

My mothers chart is also a good one to study 12/7/46 Juneau Ak (don´t know the time)

An Infamous female example... Aileen Wuornos first came to mind LOL
September 12, 2020 at 04:30
(Aquarius) Leo Moon
I think the internet has exacerbated these negative feelings.

People get in their bubbles with like minded individuals and amplify these destructive ideas.

There is no exposure to diversity of thought, ideas or emotions.

There is always a grain of truth, a couple of bad experiences.

Instead of chalking it up to experience and moving on it is blown out of proportion and seen everywhere and in everything.

This wallowing in negativity and continuous victim hood ,can generate a good income for the savvy exploiters. So it is further amplified.

When the reality of nature is distorted by fantasy, no matter how good intentioned, people are sad , hurt and uneasy in their lives .

Unsure of themselves and where they fit they are angry.


The fact that all people are individuals has been replaced with a twisted idea of collectivism.

This all applies to more than the topic at hand.
It’s pervasive.
September 12, 2020 at 03:43
(Taurus) IIyyaarr13 » bluerosepetals
:160: & :178: have the deepest resentments, but not the most homicidal rage, that is always indicated elsewhere in charts, so you are going to have to explore multiple factors when what you would sanely hope for is simplicity!
September 12, 2020 at 03:38
(Taurus) IIyyaarr13
I haven´t posted anything except text, emojis, & hieroglyphs, I need to "up my game" I noticed a couple of Astro-Seek addresses magickally turn Smurf blue, I guess I shall learn as I go along! Kind of weird how a planet with three different winters can take the symbolism of the male gender; Earthlike winter, apohelical/aphelion winter & nuclear winter on the planet :155:
Immanuel Velikovsky noticed seven centuries appearing twice in the ancient record and Gregory the Great put four centuries of Byzantine history into English history because the planet :154: which represents women was once just a comet born of :156: changing everything! I have Venus afflicted with Reinhold Ebertin´s harmonic eight aspects; :196: & :197: + angular cusps involved, how many depends on the type of Astrology, my mild :154: :193: :155: gives me some consolation! If major aspects and not minor aspects had been afflicting my Venus then my gender orientation would be turned halfway between the two, but it is not, so I am attracted to women! Gay guys get to "first base" better than the greater number of straight men.
Men who have something amongst the closet skeletons are more likely to have a young adulthood as "husbands."
I live in a country where quite a number of black trans-femmes have been murdered, that is several factors at once in what is a fat lazy country of sprawling suburbs and planned communities.
Serial Killers usually target women, the data on serial killers should help you find the "Super-haters"
Native American women have had some hard luck in rural America, seven generations is supposed to cause a transformation in American identity, however reverse discrimination specifically in favor of N.A. women is needed to keep that particular group from being genocided.
Matriarchal Societies are going to take another hit before twenty-first century is over, so women´s reproductive power is seen as a cause for alarm to the political force titled "Right Wingers" The majority of bats are actually "left-wingers" but that is a whole other species!
Australian Aborigine women have a hereditary aversion to white male babies that means the continent with weakest ozone weeds out white heredity most millennia; Getting race out of sexism is next to impossible!
I try to make up for being linearity challenged with shear amount of information, does not always work!
September 12, 2020 at 02:15
(Gemini) Fallen_Mage » bluerosepetals
I see, almost like a "malefic" Venus. Now that I think about it, you don´t often see the negative influence of Venus being discussed. A true silent killer indeed.
I guess for women, a malefic Mars could have a similar effect.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), I don´t have any charts I can contribute. Can´t really say I know anyone who openly despises all women/men. All I have to go off of is general vibes and assumptions, and that´s a dangerous game to play. 😕
September 11, 2020 at 22:49
(Pisces) bluerosepetals » Fallen_Mage
Geez, I read this and then forgot to reply. Yes, Pluto could play a role, although I´ve seen Saturn and Chiron in combination with Venus influence this more in men. No female charts yet. And I´m generally a bit short on charts ahaha.
September 9, 2020 at 23:46
(Gemini) Fallen_Mage
Socio-environmental factors, mostly. We´re living in the age of ideological extremism, after all. But honestly, if someone has a tendency towards obsession/extremism, it could very well manifest as an all-encompassing hatred towards an entire gender. In that regard, I´d say negative influences from good ol´ :160: might have something to do with it.
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