Anybody using Sidereal?

June 5, 2019 at 17:11 (UT/GMT)
(Scorpio) ancient_astrology
Anybody using Sidereal?
I am curious to see if there are people here using the sidereal zodiac. Please tell me why and if you have compared it to Tropical (or is that what you´re used to). Vedic astrologers are welcome to comment on this, although I am mostly interested in people doing Western astrology and who are using.

Most western astrology has been based on the tropical system since the astrologer Ptolemy who argued in its favor in the 2nd century CE. However, there have been advocates for sidereal. Just curious if we have some of those here.

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June 16, 2019 at 08:18
(Gemini) stigmí » ancient_astrology
I know what you mean. It seems that somewhere is something wrong. But i thing that the core of this is still same, but shapes are different.
I even tryed to delete houses and signs to stay only aspects x)) its good and very simple...you can read also from this...
So I feel it similar as in thread: its language. Or as look at sculpture. From back, from front...everywhere you can see another details. Maybe best is in combination of all and knowing that truth is always simple...

Btw it could be really irritating to tell scorpio that he is libra x))
June 16, 2019 at 07:37
(Aries) astro-flame » ancient_astrology
"If a sidereal astrologer tells me that I am a Libra"
"I understand that the horoscope is a system. That it can not just be reduced to one of its parts."

A little contradiction here - if horoscope can not just be reduced to one of its part, why would a Vedic astrologer just tell you you ARE a Libra? More like they would look at all your planets positions, note that Mars on ASC, note what Nakshatra the Sun is in (I keep mentioning the Nakshatras because Vedic gives them a lot of weight), then look at the houses, because planets´ expressions change depending on the house. And Vedic has a complicated system of what planet "likes" to be in what house, in other words, depending on the house the planet can express different qualities... I can not keep going deeper into details, because I don´t know Vedic that deep. What I keep trying to say is that Vedic attaches considerably less weight to characterizing a person by Sun sign only.


" However, even taking that into consideration, we can agree that having a planet or planets in Scorpio (in tropical) as opposed to having them in Libra (in sidereal) should be different."

And this is, actually, the key: the planets are in the exact same position in the sky in relation to the Earth and the rest of the Solar system. Only Vedic uses the reference coordinate system of the constellations behind those planets (as viewed from the Earth) and Tropical uses coordinate system of an imaginary line in the sky (ecliptic). But the positions of the planets do not change because some say they are "in Libra" and others say they "are in Scorpio". They remain at the exact same distance and angle to us and produce exact same energetic interaction.

So positions are the same and the meaning and energetic influence they produce is also the same. But the way to decode that meaning is different. However, when I say "the way" I mean not only whether one is "Libra" or "Scorp". I have said it a few times, but still want to repeat: Vedic uses a different approach to Sun signs and planets positions in general. Nakshatras play a big role. Your lagna (ASC), the Moon and the Moon´s Nakshatra will play a big role. Planets themselves and their roles are also different. Mars on the ASC will be given more weight than the sign which it is in.

Bottom line - if you don´t understand how two different systems can both be correct, it will help to study both. Obviously you know western pretty well. You took the Western approach to Vedic and read Sun signs descriptions and they didn´t fit. Ok. My Sidereal Sun is in Pisces and ASC in Cancer. It doesn´t fit. But looking deeper into Vedic, I see that my vedic ASC ruler (Moon) is in Scorp (and they give a lot more weight to the Moon, rather than the Sun, being an Eastern culture, thus less ego/rational mind oriented and more soul-emotional compound aware) Also Mars is not only in Aries and 10th house (10th house gives it A LOT of weight in Vedic) but also conjunct Rahu which also is a VERY powerful placement for Vedic. In Vedic Nodes are not only about "soul´s path", Rahu-Ketu placements and conjunctions actually are a big part of characteristic of a person.

"All I am saying is that I don´t see how both the sidereal and tropical system can be right." - if you give studying Vedic as much time as you gave Western, you will. As I keep saying, I don´t know Vedic THAT deep, but I have looked into it deep enough to see that it does make sense and I will arrive at the same results after I learn all the rules of reading the chart Vedic style. I just chose to spend more time learning Western.
June 15, 2019 at 17:12
(Scorpio) ancient_astrology » astro-flame
<<Secondly, even in Western astrology reading based ONLY on Sun sign characteristics can (and will) produce invalid results very often.>>


Ok, let´s be clear. I am only saying that I don´t understand how sidereal and tropical can both be right. I think any rational person would have the same question. I am not saying Vedic astrology is wrong and Western astrology is right. As you know there have been attempts to use the sidereal system in modern western astrology. All I am saying is that I don´t see how both the sidereal and tropical system can be right.

I am not trying to "fish out information" as you accuse me. I am trying to illustrate a point. If a sidereal astrologer tells me that I am a Libra and a tropical astrologer tells me that I am a Scorpio AND they MORE OR LESS both give Scorpio the same attributes and they both give Libra MORE OR LESS the same attributes then it seems LOGICAL to be find that strange and contradictory when the one tells me that I´m a Scorpio and the other tells me that I am a Libra.

I understand that the horoscope is a system. That it can not just be reduced to one of its parts. However, even taking that into consideration, we can agree that having a planet or planets in Scorpio (in tropical) as opposed to having them in Libra (in sidereal) should be different. We cannot just skirt the question. Otherwise any kind of definitions or attributions become meaningless.
June 15, 2019 at 15:36
(Scorpio) ancient_astrology » astro-flame
<<Well, at the bottom of this question is why does astrology work at all, what are its underpinnings."

That´s a much deeper question than the difference between Sidereal and Tropical>>


Well, it may be a deeper question but this issue of Sidereal and Tropical certainly raises questions as to why astrology does or does not work.

I get that the sidereal system came FIRST. However at that time, the sidereal and tropical were similar. At the Vernal Equinox, the Sun was still in Aries at around 100 CE. But Ptolemy was an astronomer. He knew that Hipparchus had correctly observed the precession of the Equinox and that over time the sun would be in Pisces at the Vernal Equinox. So, why should I believe that he was right to state that, "No, we´re going to make the astrological system solar/seasonall now." Why should we believe he was right? Well, it seems to work.

And the sidereal. I need to check again, but was it the Mesopotamians who decided on the 30 degrees that would make up the sidereal system rather than using the range of the actual constellations? If so, how did they make that decision?

Are both sign systems more or less arbitrary? If so, what does that mean?
June 15, 2019 at 14:54
(Aries) astro-flame » ancient_astrology
First of all, your ASC is also in Scorp, so you identify with that sign much more strongly, than someone, who would have different placements.

Secondly, even in Western astrology reading based ONLY on Sun sign characteristics can (and will) produce invalid results very often. Think of a chart, where for example the Sun is still in Sag, but Venus and Merc are already in Cap. Let´s also add ASC in Cap and the Moon in an air or earth sign. A person like this can read general description of Sag and say "Well, this is total bogus - it sounds nothing like me!"

Thirdly, you have Mars right on the ASC and Vedic would pay a lot of attention to that. No matter in what sign it is happening - Libra, Taurus, Pisces or any other, Mars would be a prominent feature. And Mars is Scorpionic energy also.

Lastly, as I mentioned before, you can not use the same rules you know from Western to Vedic. There are Nakshatras and derivational charts that open up deeper layers. Also, as I mentioned, I don´t know them that well, but I got into it far enough to understand, that if I actually STUDY Vedic in depth, not just switch the chart settings from tropical to sidereal, I would be able to read a chart with valid and correct results as well.

So the best way to reconcile the two is to actually start studying Vedic, having put aside everything you know about Western. Kind of start with a clean slate, in a way. Better yet, try and pay more attention to things that are different, rather than trying to fish out things that are the same in an attempt to make it look like Vedic is working THE SAME way Western is. It´s not working the same way, but it is working for sure, otherwise it would never be so widely used and be a contender to Western... and we would not be having this discussion :3:
June 15, 2019 at 14:14
(Scorpio) ancient_astrology » astro-flame
I don´t know. The more I think about it, the more I have a problem reconciling Sidereal and Tropical, at least as used in Vedic v. Western Astrology. Yesterday I looked at one of these Vedic sights that describes the various signs. When I look at Scorpio on the Vedic sight, it gave similar generalized attributions to Scorpio that Western Astrology might. Now I´m a Sun sign Scorpio in Western Astrology . If I were to cast my chart using Sidereal, I would become a Libra. Now how do you reconcile these two things? The way I see it, they cannot be reconciled. It seems to me that either one is wrong OR, perhaps, I am associating with one of the two signs and am guilty of cherry picking (as some skeptics would claim). In other words, I am taking the definition of Scorpio and finding those attributes within myself.
June 9, 2019 at 00:53
(Aries) Cajun » IIyyaarr13
Thought you guys would be interested in this.

This astrologer, Rok, from Slovenia is cracking codes between East and West. Anyone that is familiar with traditional and vedic techniques are aware that the gap between the two isn´t that big.

He and Carmina (another intuitive and sharp astrologer) that studies tropical vedic) discuss the D12 (Dwadasamsa) and its relationship to the Dodecatemoria.

This isn´t the first revelation of Rok.

Cheers....Guru is about to rise! :156:
https://www.youtube.com/watch/… :179:
YouTube
YouTube
June 7, 2019 at 09:04
(Aries) astro-flame » TimeLord
"Thank you!"

Welcome :27:

"Both Venus and Moon are in Mrigashira Pada 4"

Ok, now you´re in deeper than my very superficial knowledge of the actual Vedic techniques... But either way, there is always multiple layers of interpretation - that´s one thing in common for both branches of astrology.

Besides, looks like you got someone (Cajun) to get into details on that with you :1:
June 7, 2019 at 09:01
(Aries) astro-flame » ancient_astrology
" As I said before, sidereal is not completely faithful to the constellations."

No, they´re not. But they have much more focus on nakshatras (lunar mansions) which, if I understand correctly, are something similar to Western fixed stars. So division into 12 signs it also somewhat symbolic, yes.


"Oh, and just so you know, I use Whole Sign houses. I use the old system, the old rulers, etc"

So you´re practicing traditional astrology?

"Well, at the bottom of this question is why does astrology work at all, what are its underpinnings."

That´s a much deeper question than the difference between Sidereal and Tropical

"How is it that one system can use sidereal and get good results (I guess) but so can another that uses tropical"

To put it very shortly - cuz there´s more than one way to skin a cat.

"Yes, but there is still a universal "deep" grammar (Chomsky) to languages. I just don´t know what that grammar would be for say, Vedic astrology and Western Astrology."

Chomsky´s is just a theory, highly argued one at that. Human languages are so diverse, that such universality is rare. As someone who went to the Linguistic university and actually studied the theory of linguistics, I would definitely argue with that... also I think he might have meant a slightly different thing and his terminology may not b the most apt... but this discussion should be continued on a linguistic forum :3:

However if we do use Chomsky´s "deep" grammar as analogy, the universality of the 2 systems would be quite obvious: they both use 12 sections on the sky and the 7 visible planets (well, Modern Western adds to it, but the traditional stays with just the septener). In this they are much closer to each other, having developed from the same root (Babylonians) as you have already mentioned, when speaking about Greek transilerations.

Now, despite the FORMAL differences of constellations vs. sectors on ecliptic, they are basically operating with the same tools. In our language comparison, that would be like 2 languages that use Latin alphabet. The letters are the same - the words and grammar rules are not.

Have you ever looked into OTHER traditions, for example Chinese? They have a completely different system ALSO based on the observations of the planets. What about the Mayas in Central America? Now, their tools are even more different, they don´t have 12 signs, they have their own visions... well, Chinese do have number 12 featured, but it is a 12-year cycle, not 12 months + they use 5 elements, not 4, and only 3 of them are the same with ours (fire/water/air)

So I guess the main point is that astrology is a symbolic language/system, not an exact one. So expecting only one way to be right and correct is what brings the
confusion. Some people like to call astrology "art" rather than "science" and I kind of see their point. In art there is no right or wrong way. It´s just a question of whether or not it resonates with the audience. And each artwork has its own audience.

" Sidereal astrology claims to be more in tune with the constellations and, maybe it is, but it isn´t perfectly so. The constellations are NOT 30 degrees each."

Still, compared to Tropical, a higher percentage of their placements correspond to the constellations. So their claim on that one is correct. However, their claim to be the MORE correct form of astrology is just AS WRONG as the Western´s claim to be the MORE correct one.
June 7, 2019 at 05:23
(Cancer) TimeLord » Cajun
"hear its solid."

Yea pretty solid if birth time solid.

Star Lord
Sub Lord
Sub Sub Lord

But I prefer till Sub Lord.
Sub Lord changes within interval of 1 to 2min of change. So pretty much accuracy of birth time required.
June 7, 2019 at 04:57
(Aries) Cajun » TimeLord
They do it with the nakshatras.
Think down to 5 and 6 levels....I have 0 experience with.
Star Lord
Sub Lord
etc..

Each planet and cusp has a planet that lords over it. I cant speak anymore on that subject though, 0 experience...but hear its solid.

Yeah I can´t stress the importance of the 9th harmonic chart.
June 7, 2019 at 04:47
(Cancer) TimeLord » Cajun
Yes KP use Placidus. KP don´t use any Divisional Chart AFAIK. They have something called Sub Lord. I think it´s nothing but D9.
June 7, 2019 at 04:25
(Aries) Cajun
Forgive me if I misspeak.

Bhav Chalit is the name of the chart that the Indians reckon the houses from. From what I understand, most use equal house systems but some traditions such as KP us Placidus.
The popular free Indian software Jagannatha Hora lists all the house systems to reckon the Bhav Chalit.
There are divisional charts numbered all the way up to 144 ( I think)
D1
D2
D3
D4
D5
D7
D9
D10
D12
D16
D20
D24
D30
D40
D45
D60
Most utilize d2, d3, d4, d7, d9, d10, d12.

What this simply does is breaks down each house in the chart into finer detail.
EX D10 for career is simply a fractal of the 10th house. Each sign is divided into 10 equal parts of 3 degrees each.

I hope this kinda helps. I personally use the tropical zodiac with Indian techniques. I also throw in traditional western elements like sect and triplicity. The two really aren´t that different but I don´t understand how anyone not using Vargas and Dashas (planetary periods) are able to confidently predict.

I made a playlist of the Vargas. It is superb. The astrologer gives his whole system of sizing up charts freely on youtube. Highly recommend.

Take care.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist/…
June 6, 2019 at 15:07
(Cancer) TimeLord » astro-flame
Thank you!

Yes Moon is there by Venus win over it due to Lower the Degree of it.
Both Venus and Moon are in Mrigashira Pada 4. And I have read the traits of this Naksatra too. Also Venus Conjunct Moon in Scorpio 10th in my D9 too. SO Venus and Moon Conjunction Prominent in my Chart.
June 6, 2019 at 13:50
(Scorpio) ancient_astrology » astro-flame
<<Pretty much. The way I see the difference between Vedic/Sidereal and Western/Tropical it the same as the difference between two languages, especially if they belong to two different groups of languages. Say, any European language vs any Asian.>>

Thanks for your input. I think it´s a big question. As I said before, sidereal is not completely faithful to the constellations. If it were, we would have about twice as many Virgos, which given that I´m a double Scorpio and A SLOB, is pretty frightening to me! :)

Oh, and just so you know, I use Whole Sign houses. I use the old system, the old rulers, etc. I´m not a fan of Alan Leo.

Well, at the bottom of this question is why does astrology work at all, what are its underpinnings. How is it that one system can use sidereal and get good results (I guess) but so can another that uses tropical. Somehow your analogy with languages doesn´t work for me. I get that you´re trying to say that there are two different ways to say the same thing. Yes, but there is still a universal "deep" grammar (Chomsky) to languages. I just don´t know what that grammar would be for say, Vedic astrology and Western Astrology. Oh, they share a lot and Pingree has shown that Greek transliterations of astrological terms show up in Indian astrological texts...however even if you are using some similar techniques this question of sidereal and tropical sort of throws a monkey wrench in there. Very confusing to me. Tropical makes sense to me. It sort of rejects the notion of astrology being based on constellations and says that it is based on solstices and equinoxes (Vernal equinox in Aries, Summer Solstice in Cancer, etc). Sidereal astrology claims to be more in tune with the constellations and, maybe it is, but it isn´t perfectly so. The constellations are NOT 30 degrees each.

Lots of questions. I guess I could say "just go with the flow" but astrology is far from having been perfected, has a lot of kinks in it, is subject to people´s delusions, and for me at least, this question of sidereal vs. tropic is hardly a moot question.
June 6, 2019 at 13:38
(Aries) astro-flame » ancient_astrology
This youtube channel I give a link to above is actually quite good. The guy explains things very well, so if you´re curious about Vedic - you can check him out
June 6, 2019 at 13:30
(Scorpio) ancient_astrology » astro-flame
<<"I always use Sidereal Zodiac for Vedic and Tropical Zodiac for Western. Placidious for both."

Interesting choice on Placidus for both. Doesn´t Vedic normally use whole sign houses?

Just wondering what gives?>>

I was wondering about this myself.
June 6, 2019 at 13:21
(Aries) astro-flame » TimeLord
First of, it´s closer to Mercury, secondly it´s not just Venus, it´s the Moon there also.

And thirdly, here´s his video on Venus conjunct Rahu

https://www.youtube.com/watch/…

! IMPORTANT ! Pay attention in the end - the whole video is about possible expressions of this aspect and at the end he says :" It depends on what house and nakshatra they´re sitting in AND also what happens to them in the D9 chart and *some other chart whose name I couldn´t understand*...[...]... so don´t think that this conjunction always means the same".

The last part is true for Western also. Venus is not one-dimentional. It´s not just chicks, it´s also all physical pleasures (e.g. food) as well as artistic expression, material things and so on.

As for the D-9 chart - it´s only one of many divisional charts in Vedic astrology which are calculated to get additional information on each planet´s expression, dignity, different spheres of life...

here´s a short introduction into divisional charts https://www.vedshastra.com/division…
YouTube
YouTube
June 6, 2019 at 12:03
(Cancer) TimeLord » astro-flame
All are Traditional Vedic Rules except Tropical Zodiac.

"- a conjunction is planets being in the same sign."

In Sidereal Zodiac I have Venus Conjunct Rahu in Gemini. This should have made me a Chick Magnet. But sadly situation is different. Astrology really complex.
June 6, 2019 at 10:16
(Aries) astro-flame » TimeLord
"Just waiting for 2nd and 4th. In next 16 years if nothing related to Moon in 2nd or 4thd happen then my theory is wrong. So you can ask me later to confirm."

LOL I will remember that! :2:

"Let me hear your thoughts on Whole House..."

I don´t really practice Vedic. At some point when I was researching different schools of thought, I watched a bunch of videos on it, specifically this one guy https://www.youtube.com/user/…

and from that I understood a few basic points, like:

- if your ASC in Taurus, the entire Taurus is your first house, Gemini is second and so on

- a conjunction is planets being in the same sign. No orbs. Just same sign. Obviously, the bigger the distance, the weaker the conjunction is.

-Also there is some differences in which planet dominates the other in the conjunction. In Western they only look at essential strength. In Vedic he was talking about which planet has a lesser degree (e.g. I have Saturn 27 Sco and Moon 28 Sco - Saturn takes over. If the Moon was 26 or earlier - Moon would take over)

- They have a very intricate aspectation system - each PLANET has it´s own set of aspects, other than conjunction. Some of them overlap, but NOT every planet can "see" a planet at all the angles - square(90), trine(120), sextile(60) etc.

Didn´t go any deeper into it, but it goes to show that if you deeply study ALL of the rules of Vedic, you´re very likely to see the same information Tropical/Placidus tells you. It will just be expressed in a different way. It´s like saying the same phrase "The sky is blue" in different languages - the ways to express it are different, but the meaning is the same:

The sky is blue
El cielo es azul
Der Himmel ist blau
Небо голубое
天空是蓝色的
June 6, 2019 at 08:31
(Cancer) TimeLord » astro-flame
No specific reason.
Just personal preference.

Still let me try this way...
Currently my time Dominanted by Moon. Me Taurus Asc(Sidereal Zodiac). If I use Whole Sign then Moon will only connect my 2nd House(in Gemini) and 3rd House(Moon Lord of Cancer so 3rd for Taurus). If I use Placidious then above two cases will remain same but my 4th House Cusp will fall in Cancer. So it will be 2nd,3rd and 4th House related matters. I´m already getting 3rd House results. Just waiting for 2nd and 4th. In next 16 years if nothing related to Moon in 2nd or 4thd happen then my theory is wrong. So you can ask me later to confirm.
Let me hear your thoughts on Whole House...
June 6, 2019 at 08:00
(Aries) astro-flame » ancient_astrology
"Now I´m just wondering how one reconciles using tropic for western and sidereal for Vedic. They seem mutually exclusive to me.I am guessing that people who practice both types of astrology don´t try to reconcile them...they just use what was given to them."

Pretty much. The way I see the difference between Vedic/Sidereal and Western/Tropical it the same as the difference between two languages, especially if they belong to two different groups of languages. Say, any European language vs any Asian.

The difference is not only in alphabet and words. The structure and the grammar rules are different. Same in astrology - the difference is not only in one technical thing (the sign placements of the planets). The chart interpretation is based on different approaches, different things have more weight to them. Vedic houses have very different meanings and I remember from one Video on Vedic a guy explaining that, for example, in Vedic there is a lot of attention paid to nakshatras (Lunar mansions) no so on, and so forth.

So many times people who are used to Western rules of *grammar* LOL rules of astrology, look at siderial and try to read it the same way - that´s where the confusion happens.
June 6, 2019 at 07:40
(Aries) astro-flame » TimeLord
"I always use Sidereal Zodiac for Vedic and Tropical Zodiac for Western. Placidious for both."

Interesting choice on Placidus for both. Doesn´t Vedic normally use whole sign houses?

Just wondering what gives?
June 6, 2019 at 04:55
(Scorpio) ancient_astrology » TimeSciences
The constellations shift a degree every 72 years, I believe. So as of right now, I believe there is a 24 degree difference (practically a whole sign) between tropical and sidereal.

Now I´m just wondering how one reconciles using tropic for western and sidereal for Vedic. They seem mutually exclusive to me.I am guessing that people who practice both types of astrology don´t try to reconcile them...they just use what was given to them.

I took a course in astrophysics in college. The professor made sure to warn the class about the silliness of astrology. He pointed out how these stupid astrologers didn´t even know that they were off by one zodiacal sign.
Of course, that was his ignorance. The ancients knew about the precession of the equinox as early as the 1st century BCE and Ptolemy certainly knew about it in the 2-3 century CE, but went with the tropical zodiac anyway.So the astrological tradition is not ignorant of this.

By the way, sidereal, despite it claims to following the change in equinox, only approximates the constellations. Like the tropical it is divided up into 30 degree signs. The constellation Virgo for example takes up almost 60 degrees on the ecliptic.
June 6, 2019 at 04:26
(Pisces) TimeSciences
I´m curious about it and wonder about it because there are professional astrologers who clearly note on their sites usage of all 3(Tropical/Traditonal, Placidus and Sidereal/Vedic) in their practice. Try going into yellow pages for astrologers, then go to their sites and you will find them especially in large cities in coastal states such as New York and Florida.
PS: In sidereal my sign and planets are all in different signs therefore I am an Aquarius so blending the systems I´m an ´Aquafish!´
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