2 T-squares almost forming a grand cross. How does this affect someone?

March 17, 2023 at 15:53 (UT/GMT)
(Pisces) Leel
2 T-squares almost forming a grand cross. How does this affect someone?
Hello 👋,
I’m relatively new to the shapes in astrology - only that some are rather fortunate while others aren’t. I do not have any grand trines, instead, I have two t-squares. When allowing „all objects“ to be aspected (e. g. MC/asc) i have multiple grand crosses in my chart. The main planets involved are Mars, Jupiter, Mercury and Saturn, so I am just grateful that other more personal planets aren’t involved. Still, I don’t quite understand what this means for me and the planets involved. I’ve tried looking up t-squares with this combination of planets, but I can’t seem to find any interpretations.

I would be so glad if you could help me out and make me understand these difficulties within my chart and how I can try to work on them.

Have a nice day.

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March 22, 2023 at 22:59
(Scorpio) ENDVRE » Leel
I´m pleased to hear it. Bless you :78:
March 22, 2023 at 22:35
(Pisces) Leel » ENDVRE
Hey, thank you for this interpretation. I have definitely had big issues with mental health in the past, both within myself and also the people surrounding me. But I have been doing so much better recently, so it really isn’t quite as bad for me as you suggested :)
Have a good day.
March 22, 2023 at 22:27
(Pisces) Leel » Linda Harris
Hello Linda,
thank you for the recommendation, I will definitely try to watch “The Power Of Myth“ in the future.
I do see what you mean by saying that astrology is both literal and symbolical and like a „language“.
I tend to be a bit thrown off and question myself when hearing of certain aspects within my chart that just don’t quite resonate with me. I then try to read into them too much and fitting them onto my live and experiences, even though they really don’t. I now realize that I tend to take everything in my birth chart literal and don’t leave a lot of room for different interpretations and meanings and therefore generalize. But I think as I go on with learning, I will be more open to the different possible meanings of astrological placements and patterns. As you said, it takes a lot of patience, but help from experienced astrologers like you really helps me and keeps me on track.
I will try to be more patient with myself and learn at a more comfortable pace and maybe eventually be able to quickly resolve questions on my own.

Thank you very much for all the help you’ve given me. Have a great day :74:
March 21, 2023 at 20:58
(Scorpio) ENDVRE
A t-square on three of the angles can mean a major issue with depression.

Your IC and MC are in different signs to the planets making the t-square though so hopefully this means it won´t be quite as bad for you.
March 21, 2023 at 20:43
Linda Harris » Leel
As I said before and always say....to anyone who wants to be able to interpret planetary maps...it´s a language.
It is also symbolic.
And as discussed above, Mythological.

First, no one interested in astrology could ever go wrong reading any of Joseph Campbell´s books or watching any of the videos he participated in....
ESPECIALLY the series, "The Power Myth" ....(excerpts can be seen on Youtube.)

Astrology is a discipline, a means to interpret the energies in your life, and a way to diagnose difficult issues....and where they came from. It´s a language and in there somewhere are the MYTHS because we LIVE the myths...or as Joseph Campbell said, "We dance to the myths even when we don´t know the tunes"....
THAT may be a little off...as a quote...but if it is I will correct it later.

OK>>>this is the quote...from Joseph Campbell to Bill Moyers...via "The Power of Myth"...

"He believed that Mythology is the song of the Universe...music so deeply embedded in our collective unconscious that we dance to it even when we can´t name the tunes".

Trying to use astrology as a purely "literal" art or science is not a good idea. Many of it´s messages can be literal...but they can also be symbolic.
The astrologer is the person who is supposed to clear up this misunderstanding, issue by issue. That is why it´s really a bad idea to "generalize." Because what is true (literal) for one person may be figurative for another....and must be dealt with from another angle.

Don´t pressure yourself to learn "quickly" Whatever resonates with you, is probably useful. If it sounds wrong...and you are someone who is usually honest with yourself, then it probably is wrong in that particular way.

Patience ... :1: :74: :68: :17:
March 19, 2023 at 21:57
(Pisces) Leel » Astrooo
Hey, thank you for your answers and summary. I will try to get a hold of this book and can’t wait to read and learn from it further.
Thank you very much for your help.
March 19, 2023 at 21:00
(Virgo) Astrooo » Leel
Wahoo, your ability to find so quickly personnal interpretations to the myth of Ariadne / Theseus / Dionysus is impressive

1/ I write personnal interpretationS with an S because a symbolic interpretation is always polysemic = the Symbol does not allow itself to be locked up in a straitjacket, but offers several paths of exploration.
Each human, according to its soul, will explore this or that path.

So when you ask to me "Which of these versions do you think symbolizes my theme best?", i can´t answer to you because this is your soul which will tell you which version is right for you, in 2023.
And it could be different in 2, 5, 10 years, depending on how your heroic journey evolves.

2/ Then when you write "When you mentioned living trough a „heroic“ travel, did you mean that literally or metaphorically? So, should I actually strive to travel on my own and go on an adventure or was that meant to symbolize my way through meaningful situations in general?"

1st, you will discover it for yourself and in your own way.

2nd, I advise you to read Joseph Campbell´s book "the hero of a thousand and one faces".
It is a good introduction to understand the symbolic travel of the Hero.
I am writing you the summary which describe, quite well, the heroic travel

1/ the call of adventure
2/ the refusal of the call
3/ supernatural help
4/ crossing the 1st threshold
5/ the belly of the whale

1/ The path of trials
2/ The encounter with the goddess
3/ The tempting woman
4/The reunion with the father
5/ apotheosis
6/ The supreme gift

1/ The refusal of the return
2/ The magic escape
3/ Deliverance from outside
4/ Crossing the threshold on the way back
5/ Master of both worlds
6/ FREE IN FRONT OF LIFE (see extract)

Extract from chapter ´free in front of life"

"Man acting in the World, if he is concerned with the result of his acts, no longer situates himself in the axis of the principle of eternity, but if he places the fruits of his actions at the feet of the living God, he is delivered by them (his actions), as by a sacrifice, from the servitudes of the ocean of Death. "to accomplish without attachment the work that you must do...[...] the mind concentrated on the Self (nota: = our astrological Sun or = Dasein, in Deutch - Cf Heidegger), free from all hope and egoism, cured of mental fever, throw yourself into the fight - inaccessible to regret"
Strengthened by this inner vision, free and calm in his acts, exalted by the grace of Viracocha (note: God of Inca mythology) spreading through his hand,

Joseph Campbell "the hero of a thousand and one faces" - Page 328 (french edition)
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March 19, 2023 at 19:28
(Pisces) Leel » Astrooo
Hello, first of all - wow. Thank you for these incredible symbolisms and explanations.
So, if I understood correctly, knowledge and communication (or to communicate my knowledge) and creative expressions are vital for my sun. This would really make so much sense since it resonates heavily with me. Whenever I refrain to social isolation and reduce most communication to a minimum, I tend to feel useless and depressed. On the other hand, when being respected by others for my knowledge, input and creative output my inner self truly starts to shine brightly.
When you mentioned living trough a „heroic“ travel, did you mean that literally or metaphorically? So, should I actually strive to travel on my own and go on an adventure or was that meant to symbolize my way through meaningful situations in general?

I found the myth of Ariane very interesting to explore, although it is quite difficult to interpret. I see it this way: My love/emotions/desires (venus/moon) are deeply connected (married) to my creativity/dreams/delusions (neptune).
Ariane helped Theseus find his way out of a labyrinth, suggesting that beauty/love/art (venus) are able to fuel my drive/desires (mars).
However, when further trying to research this myth, I stumbled upon different versions: one where Theseus abandoned Ariane on an island, and another one where Dionysus kept Theseus away from Ariane. So, one could mean that my drive/desires (mars) tend to neglect my needs/emotions/love (moon/venus), whilst the other could mean that my dreams/delusions (neptune) lead to my drive (mars) not supporting my emotions/desires/love (moon/venus).
Which of these versions do you think symbolizes my theme best?

Lastly, the song you connected to is really beautiful. Another part of the song I really like is the end:

„When I doubt
When I fall and the road is too long
When sometimes I’m not what you expect from me
What do you want us to do
What would you have done in my place“

Thank you very much for your input, have a good day
March 19, 2023 at 15:01
(Virgo) Astrooo » Leel

1a/ Of course, You have an extremely important square, because it will constitute the skeleton of your life course:
- it features the Unicorn cross
- it includes The cross of the lunar nodes
- Mars is directly involved in this square (opposite to your Unicorn)
- ASC/DSC are involved too

1b/ there is no curse or blessing to this configuration.
Just a proposal from Life to express your potential in this frame of the square.

1c/ I also have this particular configuration (Cross of Lilith confused with the cross of the lunar nodes + the sun which activates them) = I think I understand the symbolism of your square.
That you will of course live completely differently from me.

2/ Concerning the comment around your card, I will not go into details for two reasons:

2a: you are a "baby", you must discover the potentialities of your chart by their experiments in your life (in particular with your Mars sextile with your Sun = you needs to "experiment", being in action)

2b: the dark side of your chart (don´t panic, we all have a dark side to our chart) is to stuff yourself with knowledges to have Power (cf H3).
Life will take care to teach you to understand that for our human condition, Power is an illusion.

Good news: the dark side of our personality is our greatest wealth. Because this area contains potential riches capable of nourishing our Sun - soul = allowing it to shine even "stronger" = increasing our "Light".
(Imagine it´s oil extracted from the earth and used to run our cars and keep us warm)

For that, you will have to go through a "heroic" travel = a travel with obstacles, but if you are in agreement with yourself, you will be "helped" in this adventure.

3/ Concerning your creative capacity, it will feed on your dark side.
This creative ability that colors your theme can be expressed through motherhood, artistic creation, etc.
What ever, as long as you become the Matrix of an impulse that you will receive from Life (it may be your husband´s sperm that will fertilize your egg, the creative intuition that will pass through you and that you will materialize through your talent, etc.) .

4/ The relationship with the Other is foundational in your chart.
I suggest you carefully read the myth of Ariane (Venus Pisces/Moon Taurus in your theme ?) with her meeting with Theseus (Mars in your theme ?) and then her marriage to Dionysus (Jupiter/Neptune in you theme ?).
It resonates very strongly with the mood of your theme.

"Dionysos et Ariane sont mari et femme, mais en dépit des normes matrimoniales classiques, ils le sont dans un espace sans cloisons.
Leur couple abolit les clivages qui opposent mariage et désir, virginité et sexualité. Il lève les barrières qui, dans la Grèce antique, divisent l´espace féminin en différentes régions qui ne peuvent interférer.
De son épouse officielle, le dieu est resté l´éternel amant et dans les représentations figurées, le couple de Dionysos et d´Ariane, enlacés dans l´abandon amoureux, fixe l´image d´un mariage où le désir reste omniprésent.
Mythiques ou rituelles, les partenaires de Dionysos échappent à l´alternative qui voudraient en faire soit des épouses, soit des amantes.
Elles ont accès à un pays où l´espace féminin est plus unifié que ne l´aurait voulu Penthée »


5/ by connecting to your theme, this song came to me.

It talks about the difficulty of communication in the relationship.
you can easily find the complete lyrics and translate them, if you are interested.

"I don´t expect you to be the same
I don´t expect you to understand me
But only that you love me
For what I am"

A MA PLACE - Axel Bauer - Zazie

i put the clip which is interesting in its symbolism.
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March 19, 2023 at 11:30
(Pisces) Leel » Graham
Hello, that’s very interesting. So this „misunderstanding“ in our communication is a manifestation of the square aspect in my learning-triangle and by explaining myself and apologizing or us resolving the „conflict“ I was able to acquire that harmony again? That’s really good to know and truly a great visualization for me to better understand my learning-triangle. Thank you for clearing that up.
Have a good day.
March 19, 2023 at 11:01
(Pisces) Leel » Astrooo
Hi, I love music and arts in general, but I don’t know if I can call myself talented in these areas. May I ask why you’re asking me this?
March 19, 2023 at 08:04
(Scorpio) Graham » Leel
"There’s different interpretations to language and it might just be the cultural difference between us."

Another member has messaged me, pointing out that I appear (in this thread) to be "taking offence, where none was/is intended".

I apologise if it also appears that way to you, Leel ... as my aim is only to draw your attention to how "cultural differences" can create misunderstandings in communications.

In reality, I am not actually offended by your "thank you!" comment at all ... just alerting you to the fact that transit Neptune is currently activating your natal Sun-Mars-Pluto Small Learning Triangle - thus providing an ideal opportunity for you to explore it.

So ... please do not take my apparent "intolerance/irritability" seriously. It is just my way of exemplifying how that Small Learning Triangle might manifest in your life/communications.
March 19, 2023 at 07:45
(Virgo) Astrooo

Do you think you have a creative talent?
March 19, 2023 at 01:50
(Pisces) Leel » Linda Harris
Hey Linda, I’m sorry my response fell short - it really didn’t do the time you took for me justice. There were a few comments to respond to and I’ve had quite the stressful day, so I haven’t really been able to digest the content of your comment fully. I have since been able to re-read your response and you were right - it’s getting more and more easy for me to digest all of the valuable information. Also, thank you for explaining the moon-uranus aspect in my chart further. I was quite worried about what you said initially, but I now understand what you mean by „confuse“ and am more at ease. I do tend to hold back on my emotions as you mentioned, though.

Regardless, I thank you for all the time and patience you’ve taken to respond to me.
Have a good day👋 :79:
March 18, 2023 at 16:16
Linda Harris » Leel
Please re-read my last post.
Just because you didn´t quite "picture" what I was saying does not mean you cannot understand each point...a little more ...if you read it again.

You said nothing about my comment about your Moon/Uranus sextile....which I would have thought would make you feel validated emotionally....

I know when you get a lot of responses it´s hard to keep up...but sometimes you have to read some of the posts again to get the real sense of the information,
Linda :17: :78:

PS: a hint....we learn (all of us by the way) by repetition. the more familiar you get with the planets shapes and houses and aspects...and language, the easier it becomes to understand it....because for one thing: the language of astrology is symbolic. We all sort of understand symbolism, even if we don´t know it.
March 18, 2023 at 13:45
(Pisces) Leel » Graham
Hey, I am sorry if it seemed that way. I usually use exclamation marks in order to emphasize what I said in that sentence. For me a simple dot would have seemed dry so that’s why I often times use exclamation marks when thanking people as a way to show sincerity. There’s different interpretations to language and it might just be the cultural difference between us.
Again, I apologize. Have a good day.
March 18, 2023 at 12:55
(Scorpio) Graham » Leel
"I am assuming that you think I think that you ´lack the ability to understand´ my initial post because I asked another user follow-up questions…?"

No. ... It is the ! in your "Thank you!" reply that offends me.

["The use of the exclamation mark as the SNEER MARK, or ironic mark, or laughing-at-your-own-joke mark (as F Scott Fitzgerald roughly said), is so last century it’s this century." ... https://www.bbc.com/culture/… ]

My guess is that you did not intend the "thank you" to be a sneer (as interpreted by me/the recipient) ... and that this misunderstanding is actually a manifestation of your Sun-Mars-Pluto Small Learning Triangle.
March 18, 2023 at 09:58
(Pisces) Leel » ~Laura~
Hey Laura,
you’re right I should have payed attention to orbs as well. Thank you for your insight!
March 18, 2023 at 09:55
(Pisces) Leel » Linda Harris
Hey, yes I do definitely need to study A lOT more on the basics. Thank you for being patient with me though. This is definitely a lot to digest but with learning more and more about astrology I can keep on coming back to this post, so thank you.
(And yes you were right about my mother. She has always played a huge role in my life.)

Have a great day.
March 18, 2023 at 09:49
(Pisces) Leel » Graham
Hey, I know it’s a lot of information right now and I am actually reading into your advice of understanding my learning triangle. I for now will no longer be looking at my t-square. I am assuming that you think I think that you „lack the ability to understand“ my initial post because I asked another user follow-up questions…? I am grateful for any advice I get and understand that you know I don’t have a lot of knowledge on astrology and that I should start small first, which is great advice because I often times get impatient with myself end go for the bigger thing - which I know is not productive. So, others keeping me in check is not a bad thing. I’m sorry if I offended you in any way, I just had a few follow-up questions about another persons post. Have a good day.
March 18, 2023 at 07:52
(Scorpio) Graham » Leel
Since you can´t digest all of this "2 T-squares" information at one time ... focus FIRST upon understanding the Small Learning Triangle of Sun-Mars-Pluto.

Alternatively though, you can just continue with your assumption that I lack the ability to understand your opening post.
March 17, 2023 at 22:50
Linda Harris » Leel
I think you need to study a little more about the basics....but I will still try to explain further:´

"I have a few questions, don’t feel inclined to answer all of them: what exactly do you mean by „empty area“? I suppose it doesn’t mean having no Planets in a house because my moon sits in the 7th house.
What effect does my 7th house being an empty area and transits in there touching off my t-square have on my personal relationships?"

The empty area is the space a planet would be in if you have a grand cross. It would be in Aries.
The confusion comes because the cusp of the 7th is ruled by Aries...you have the north node in Aries...and yet there is no activity there...the first energy IN the house of partnership is the Moon in Taurus. So in the 7th but in another sign.
IT´S dynamic (the way it operates) is very different from the energy of Libra, Capricorn and Cancer...which are MORE so because they are opposed and fated to work in tandem...and yet fight with each other.

So the Moon can´t interact with Saturn in Cancer or Jupiter in Libra, or Mars in Capricorn or Pluto or Neptune--------------

It is most comfortable interacting with Uranus...the planet of unpredictability and innovation and genius...but within the context of the Taurus/Pisces energy dynamic.

The Moon in the 7th, especially in Taurus, wants partnership...as Taurus is very traditional in nature....and rules the 2nd house of values.

BUT..the planets in the t-square are in conflict. Therefore you will feel the conflict at different times. Mixed desires.

YOu don´t lack anything emotionally....in fact you have a LOT of emotion...a lot of sensitivity...a lot of ideas and intuitive "feelings"...an unusual combination.

It may be that you hold yourself back. The moon rules the Mother...or mother figure...and she is VERY powerful in your life...whether she is near you or far away.

Addressing the last part...your 11th house of "friends" is easier to deal with than the 7th house of partnership. YOu are more likely to be more tolerant of the flaws of friends than you are of people you would want to partner with LEGALLY...which is the 7th house´s area.

I know this sounds complicated...but you can´t digest all of this information at one time. It´s just not possible. But if it might sound familiar...

YOu must remember that your original post did NOT tell us anything about your self..your life...no context about your career...your relationships...so all this is very "broad" in description. AND may cover different times in your life...as your chart represents your entire life.
March 17, 2023 at 22:11
I have two t-squares""

Hi Leel -

for me - you don´t have 2 t-squares in your chart. A T-Square looks like this.

You have 2 squares. A a tight sun pluto square and a jupiter saturn square. The validity of aspects is always also a question of valid orbs. An orb of 5° like saturn/mars and jupiter/mercury is seen as weak and as not much effective.
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March 17, 2023 at 21:10
(Sagittarius) Gryphon CZ
Although the square alone is clearly a tension aspect (although its tension can manifest itself in different ways, depending on the quadruplicities), the t-square is different, with the squares and oppositions held as if in check. The place where the fourth, empty corner is (the point which complete it to grand square), points to the possibility of an outcome.
March 17, 2023 at 20:12
(Pisces) Leel » Linda Harris
Hey, first I wanna thank you for taking your time!
I have a few questions, don’t feel inclined to answer all of them: what exactly do you mean by „empty area“? I suppose it doesn’t mean having no Planets in a house because my moon sits in the 7th house.
What effect does my 7th house being an empty area and transits in there touching off my t-square have on my personal relationships?

Furthermore, you mentioned my moon only making one aspect and that possibly confusing others. What exactly do you mean by „confuse“? Does it mean others have a hard time understanding my emotions or that I „lack“ something when it comes to being emotional?

Lastly, when you said that the people I’m attracted to turn out to only be half of what I’m looking for - is this in relation to people with that taurus energy or just personal relationships in general?

Thank you, and as I said you shouldn’t feel inclined to answer my questions, you have already given me valuable insight!
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